[00:00:00] Speaker 06:
Okay, this is a time set for argument in Case 25-2830, Codoni v. Port of Seattle. I know we have several appellants who are sharing time, and so you may each reserve time for rebuttal. Mr. Dvoretsky, good morning.

[00:00:14] Speaker 05:
Good morning. May it please the Court, Shai Dvoretsky for Alaska Air Group. I'd like to reserve two minutes for rebuttal. With me is Amir Tehrani for Delta. The Port is joining our arguments. David Peters is also here for the United States.

[00:00:28] Speaker 05:
I'm happy to answer questions the court may have about any preemption issue, but I plan to focus today on the Clean Air Act and on impossibility preemption.

[00:00:36] Speaker 05:
Mr. Tehrani will focus on the ADA and the other implied preemption arguments, and Mr. Peters will address the federal interest at stake.

[00:00:44] Speaker 05:
Turning to the Clean Air Act, Section 233 preempts any state law standard respecting emissions of any air pollutant from any aircraft or engine unless that standard is identical to the federal standard. plaintiffs' claims meet every element of the statutory preemption test. The claims seek to assert a standard because under the Supreme Court's decisions in Ginsburg and CSX, rules that are supposedly required by state common law count as standards for purposes of express preemption provisions. That standard here respects emissions of air pollutants because plaintiffs claim that the airlines violated Washington law when their planes emitted pollution while flying into and out of SeaTac that then built up to harmful levels on their property.

[00:01:29] Speaker 04:
Let me – I read the plaintiff's complaint a couple of times. Maybe not every word every time I read it, but it's a pretty long complaint. It tells a story.

[00:01:43] Speaker 04:
Do you read the complaint as challenging emissions from the exhaust, from the airplanes, or just – They're after cleanup, what's on the ground. Does it encompass both or is it focused on one or the other?

[00:02:04] Speaker 04:
The way you read it. Now, remember, we're supposed to read it in the light most favorable to the plaintiff.

[00:02:09] Speaker 05:
I think the only way to read it is that the cleanup is the consequence of what they believe to be unlawful emissions. The cleanup is the remedy that state law provides for contamination that they claim comes from the emissions that result from our flying federally regulated planes and engines on federally regulated flight paths over their homes. The reason that is preempted under the Clean Air Act is that is a standard that respects emissions.

[00:02:40] Speaker 05:
The emissions, again, are the basis for the contamination that they say needs to be cleaned up. It is a standard that respects emissions. Just under the plain language of the statute of any air pollutant from an aircraft or engine.

[00:02:52] Speaker 04:
So any pollutant that might come from the exhaust of an engine that ends up on the ground for whatever reason, the fact that it's on the ground still means it's covered by the Clean Air Act.

[00:03:08] Speaker 05:
Because, yes, because it is an emission, if it is an emission from the engine or the airplane, again, looking at the text of the statute there.

[00:03:16] Speaker 02:
So the remedial, Washington's, of course, trying to invoke this remedial measure to abate the pollution, but you're saying it doesn't matter because the preemption really arises with the emission.

[00:03:31] Speaker 05:
First, yes, first, it's a matter of statutory text. The preemption arises from the emission. And second, it's not possible to separate out the remedy from the unlawful conduct that justifies the remedy as a matter of ordinary state tort law. The only reason that the airlines could be ordered or the court could be ordered to pay cleanup costs or to establish a medical monitoring fund that they ask for is if it's determined that they violated the law by causing the pollution in the first place. And so to Judge Paez's question, You can't separate out the two.

[00:04:04] Speaker 05:
The only reason that you potentially have the cleanup costs, the medical monitoring fund, whatever, is because of an unlawful emission. And the state standards regarding emissions from aircraft or engines are preempted under the Clean Air Act unless, again, they're identical to a federal standard.

[00:04:21] Speaker 04:
How about – one of the things that they also talk about are – I don't know if I've got this correct, but they talk about – Releases of metal from the fuselage of the airplanes. The flaking. Right, flaking.

[00:04:38] Speaker 04:
How does that fit in with the Clean Air Act?

[00:04:43] Speaker 05:
So that's also covered by the plain language of the Clean Air Act. Again, if we just go back to the statute. First, the statute is distinguishing between emissions from an aircraft or an engine. So it's not just the gases from the engine or whatever from the engine that is covered. It's also an emission from the aircraft itself. implying that pollutants can be emitted from the plane. In addition, when we look at the definition of air pollutant in the statute, this is 42 USC 7602G, it's quite broad. It's any air pollutant agent or matter which is emitted into or otherwise enters into the ambient air.

[00:05:18] Speaker 05:
So under the plain text of the statute, the particular matter that they are alleging is also preemptive.

[00:05:24] Speaker 04:
No, debris is not any... What about any kind of debris from the plane, from the fuselage of the plane? I mean...

[00:05:32] Speaker 04:
Is that different than exhaust?

[00:05:36] Speaker 05:
I think that we're looking at what an agent or matter. Again, it's very broad language. If you had a situation where an entire wing fell off of a plane or something. You wouldn't ordinarily think of that as a pollutant. You didn't pollute the ground with the wing. So that probably wouldn't be covered by the Clean Air Act. Presumably not, but that's not what they're talking about here.

[00:05:54] Speaker 02:
Or if all the luggage somehow flew out and landed on the ground.

[00:05:57] Speaker 05:
They're talking here about very fine particulate matter, and whether that comes from the engine or whether that comes from the aircraft itself, it's covered under the plane language of the Clean Air Act.

[00:06:05] Speaker 04:
And that's the way you understand the allegations and the complaints. Correct. They list a host of...

[00:06:11] Speaker 04:
contaminants, I think, in the complaint.

[00:06:14] Speaker 05:
Sure. They're all different kinds of air pollutants under that broad definition.

[00:06:22] Speaker 05:
If the court has no other questions on the Clean Air Act and watching my clock, I would briefly turn to impossibility preemption, which I also think is a straightforward way to resolve this case. State law is preempted when it's impossible for a private party to comply with both state and federal requirements, absent special accommodations from the federal government. Here, There are three things that the airlines could do and that the port could do in order to avoid state law liability. One, modify their aircraft to reduce emissions. Can't do that without permission from the federal government.

[00:06:55] Speaker 05:
Two, alter their flight paths so that they're not flying over plaintiffs' homes. Can't do that without permission from the federal government.

[00:07:01] Speaker 04:
Three, stop service to see... But if you read their complaint, I mean, remember, this is up here on 12B6. So we look at the allegations in the complaint, right?

[00:07:09] Speaker 05:
Right.

[00:07:10] Speaker 04:
And, you know... that might be a remedy. We don't know that until we get to the end of the case, right? That's not too helpful.

[00:07:20] Speaker 05:
I think we do know that from the complaint because the only thing that they are asking for in the complaint, they are saying, go ahead, fly your federally regulated routes. Keep the routes, keep the planes, as is. But pay us damages. And that goes back to our earlier colloquy. That's a different point. No, no, but I think it comes back to the same point. The only way to understand their complaint- is that they are seeking money for a violation of state law. If you are violating state law, you are not, by definition, simultaneously complying with both state and federal law.

[00:07:52] Speaker 05:
And the Supreme Court has made clear in cases like Pliva and in cases like Bartlett that, first, a defendant doesn't have to cease operating in a market entirely in order to avoid preemption. And second, that impossibility preemption would be a dead letter If the answer to any preemption question were just pay damages, because again, at that point, you're not complying with both state and federal law. You are violating state law and paying for it.

[00:08:18] Speaker 04:
Let me ask you, do you understand the complaint to be alleging negligence in the initial pollution, like the exhaust or just regarding the cleanup negligent in the way that they have?

[00:08:32] Speaker 05:
I think the only way to understand it is in the initial exhaust. Let me give you an analogy as an example. If I punch my neighbor and I refuse to then pay the medical expenses, you wouldn't say that the thing that I did wrong is not paying the medical expenses. The only reason that I am obligated to pay the medical expenses is because I committed a battery in the first place. That's what triggered the need for the medical expenses. As a matter of state tort law, that is the only way to understand what the alleged unlawful conduct is here. And if the unlawful conduct that they allege here is emissions from the plane and tied to the emissions and the flight paths, That's preempted for all of the different reasons that are explained in the brief, some of which I've talked about today.

[00:09:14] Speaker 05:
I'm happy to answer any questions the court may have. I do want to be mindful of my rebuttal time as well.

[00:09:17] Speaker 06:
We'll put two minutes on the clock for you.

[00:09:20] Speaker 06:
Thank you, Mr. Bivoretsky.

[00:09:27] Speaker 06:
Mr. Tehrani, good morning.

[00:09:29] Speaker 03:
Good morning, Your Honors, and may it please the court, Amir Tehrani for Delta Airlines. In addition to being barred by the Clean Air Act's preemption provision and by conflict preemption. The plaintiff's complaint is also barred by the broad language of the ADA's express preemption provision, by the FAA's exclusive control over airspace management, and by the EPA and FAA's exclusive control over aviation emissions. The Supreme Court has described the ADA's express preemption provision as deliberately expansive and as conspicuous for its breadth.

[00:10:08] Speaker 03:
It bars any state law claim that relates to a price, route or service of an air carrier. That's precisely what these allegations relate to service.

[00:10:21] Speaker 03:
They relate to service, Your Honor, because they are a direct attack on the airline's decisions to fly into and out of SeaTac and the frequency of those flights.

[00:10:34] Speaker 04:
I keep saying this, but for me, I mean, you have to read the complaint. I mean, that's what this is. That's where we're at. The district court denied the motion to dismiss on 12B6 grounds, right? So what's critical here is what's alleged in the complaint, right?

[00:10:54] Speaker 03:
That's exactly right, Your Honor. And the complaint mentions the defendant's flights and their routes in and out of SeaTac more than 15 times. It alleges that the contamination at issue is, quote, the direct result of the flights into and out of SeaTac, that it's caused by those flights, that it is created by those flights, and that is closely associated with the defendants' flight paths. So this is a direct challenge to the routes that the airlines are flying into and out of SeaTac,

[00:11:28] Speaker 04:
One of the ways you could read this complaint is what they're really complaining about is the failure to clean up.

[00:11:36] Speaker 03:
It's impossible to divorce the alleged failure to clean up from the flights and the flight paths that, in the words of the complaint, directly result in the emissions that the defendants have supposedly failed to clean up. We wouldn't be standing here today, Your Honor, if the plaintiffs didn't allege that they lived in under the flight paths. And we wouldn't be here today if the defendants weren't required to fly along the federally specified flight paths.

[00:12:06] Speaker 04:
As I understand it, it was a five-mile radius around the airport is what they identified as the area of concern.

[00:12:17] Speaker 03:
Correct, Your Honor. And the plaintiffs allege that they live within that five-mile radius, that they live under flight paths that have been specified by the FAA. This theory of liability challenges the defendant's ordinary flight operations. There's nothing unique about SeaTac. There's nothing unique about the fact that these airplanes have to fly below 3,000 feet when they land and when they take off.

[00:12:48] Speaker 03:
If this theory of liability is permitted to go forward, then the defendants would face similar claims at every commercial airport throughout the country. They would face staggering liability. They would be making decisions about the markets to serve based not on consumer demand, but based on the risk of state law liability. That is anathema to the deregulatory objectives of the Airline Deregulation Act. It also would create massive disuniformity in an area that requires uniformity.

[00:13:22] Speaker 03:
Air travel is inherently interstate. It's inherently international. There needs to be a uniform set of federal regulations governing airplane emissions. It can't be the case, to use the words of this court's decision in Montalvo, that an airplane that takes off from Providence, Rhode Island, that lands in Baltimore, Maryland, and that continues on to Miami, Florida, is subject to three different sets of state standards along the way. And it can't be the case that a Delta Airlines flight taking off from Atlanta, Georgia, is subject to one set of emissions standards when it takes off, a different set of emissions standards when it lands, and different sets along the path from Georgia to Washington based on the state that the airplane happens to be passing over at that point in the flight.

[00:14:12] Speaker 03:
So for all of these reasons, these claims are squarely barred by the ADA's express preemption provision. They relate to airlines' routes and services. They're also barred by the FAA's exclusive control over airspace management. Congress has given the United States government exclusive sovereignty over United States airspace.

[00:14:34] Speaker 04:
Let me ask you this. What caught my eye when I read the complaint was they had all these studies like from the University of Washington and a couple other places about the effects of this black dust or black soot or whatever, the contaminants that are in the air.

[00:14:55] Speaker 04:
Is there any party or any entity that might be responsible for, you know, cleaning up?

[00:15:08] Speaker 03:
Your Honor, we're talking about the inherent byproducts of ordinary flight operations. The FAA, when it sets flight paths, the EPA, when it sets emission standards, takes these considerations into account. For example, the move-up study that Your Honor referenced and that is mentioned in the complaint was expressly considered by the EPA in the 2022 order reproduced in Delta's addendum that sets particulate matter limitations for airplane engines.

[00:15:44] Speaker 03:
That's at addendum 43. The FAA, when it sets flight paths, strikes a careful and delicate balance between considerations of safety and efficiency on the one side, and the protection of persons and property on the ground, on the other. The U.S. Supreme Court recognized that in City of Burbank versus Lockheed and explained that in light of this delicate balance that the FAA needs to strike, that there needs to be a, quote, uniform and exclusive system of federal regulation.

[00:16:19] Speaker 02:
Maybe this is a variation on Judge Paez's question, but in your view, Is there any way in which these plaintiffs that live in this contamination zone could allege any kind of damages or claim for the impact on their habitat?

[00:16:42] Speaker 03:
Not from these ordinary flight operations. There's no allegation in this complaint that the defendants have deviated from the federally prescribed flight paths. and from the federally prescribed.

[00:16:54] Speaker 06:
Could they bring a claim for violation of federal emission standards or bring a claim for deviation from a flight path, for example, if the claim was premised on federal law?

[00:17:05] Speaker 03:
The plaintiffs could bring a parallel claim that seeks to enforce a violation of a federal standard under state law. But this court's decision in Nacarino v. Cashy makes clear that where a plaintiff seeks to rely on enforcing a federal standard through a parallel state law standard, it needs to allege a violation of federal law in the complaint. And when it fails to do so, 12B6 dismissal is appropriate.

[00:17:38] Speaker 02:
There is potential for a claim for violation of the federal emissions law, correct?

[00:17:46] Speaker 03:
There is a potential, but that's not the claim.

[00:17:49] Speaker 02:
And that.

[00:17:50] Speaker 03:
That's not the claim that these plaintiffs brought, Your Honor. And that's precisely why in Nacarino, this court recognized the possibility of a parallel claim to enforce the requirements of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetics Act, but still dismissed the case because the plaintiffs did not allege a violation of federal law. And that's precisely the case here. The plaintiffs don't allege a violation of federal emission standards They don't allege a violation of the flight paths that are specified by the FAA.

[00:18:29] Speaker 03:
So this complaint is subject to dismissal not only based on the ADA, but because it is an impermissible intrusion on the expert regulatory determinations that the FAA made in specifying flight paths and that the EPA made in establishing the emissions levels for these ordinary flight operations. And again, I would return to the fact that there's nothing unique about SeaTac. There's nothing unique about the defendants' flights into this airport.

[00:19:02] Speaker 03:
And if this claim is permitted to move forward, it would lead to a risk of massive liability for these defendants. It would lead to defendants making decisions about the markets to serve based on the risk of state law liability not based on the free market principles enshrined in the ADA, and it would lead to a patchwork of disuniform state law standards that is incompatible with the uniformity that this court recognized is necessary in the Gian Turco case, the U.S.

[00:19:32] Speaker 03:
Supreme Court recognized is necessary in the city of Burbank.

[00:19:36] Speaker 06:
Okay, we'll put two minutes on the clock for rebuttal. We'll hear next from Mr. Peters, who's appearing for the United States.

[00:19:43] Speaker 06:
Mr. Peters, as you're an amicus, I don't think we'll have rebuttal time for you, so this is your time. No problem, Your Honor.

[00:19:49] Speaker 07:
Good morning, and may it please the Court, David Peters, on behalf of the United States of America.

[00:19:54] Speaker 07:
Congress has long recognized that aviation management and safety are spheres where the federal interest is dominant and the need for a uniform and exclusive system of federal regulation is paramount. That is why Congress included in the Clean Air Act and Airline Deregulation Act broad provisions expressly preempting state standards, And it is why this court has recognized that even absent such an express preemption provision, preemptive intent is more readily inferred in the context of aviation, given the federal government's extensive regulation in the area pursuant to the Federal Aviation Act.

[00:20:25] Speaker 06:
Does the United States have a view? There's so many different preemption arguments that have been made here. Does the United States have a view on which of these is the strongest?

[00:20:33] Speaker 07:
I'm not sure. I think we agree that there are various different ways in which these claims are preempted. I don't think we have a strong view on which of those is the kind of easiest way to go about doing it or, you know, the federal government enforces all of these federal standards and we think that they are all implicated and preempt the state law claims that are at issue here.

[00:20:50] Speaker 04:
So you don't have any view on which we use express preemption, flag preemption, assuming we were to go, assuming we were to disagree with the district court.

[00:20:59] Speaker 07:
You know, I mean, I think the district court erred in several key respects in holding that these claims weren't expressly preempted. And so I think it's worthwhile to, I think, clarify to a degree. this court to clarify why those claims are. I mean, I think in the ADA context, for example, the district court relied on this kind of language about having to bind claims, which would suggest that common law claims can never be preempted by the ADA. This court has explained why that's not right, but I think it's worth reiterating why that's not the case here. But again, we don't have a strong position on, you know, if this court is inclined to rule that these claims are preempted, which of the various theories are.

[00:21:32] Speaker 04:
You may not have thought about this because this doesn't, you know, the question I have really relates to the port. But they have an – they have an inverse condemnation claim under Washington – under the Washington state constitution.

[00:21:47] Speaker 07:
I'm aware, Your Honor. We didn't take a position on those claims.

[00:21:49] Speaker 04:
Do you have any views on that?

[00:21:52] Speaker 07:
No, Your Honor. We participated on a limited basis, which is what – we think these claims are preempted by the federal standards.

[00:21:57] Speaker 06:
We don't have a – Including the condemnation claim?

[00:21:59] Speaker 07:
No, no, no. Our participation is not on the condemnation claim. I don't believe it. Do you have a view on whether that claim is preempted? I'm not – not in a position to take the view right now in front of this court about what that claim is.

[00:22:10] Speaker 04:
Let me ask you this. I'm sure you carefully read the complaint. I did, Your Honor. Okay. How do you read it? Do you think they're just challenging the cleanup aspects, or are they challenging the admissions?

[00:22:24] Speaker 07:
I share the views that are expressed by my colleagues previously at the podium. I think that there cannot be a standalone remediation claim because the action that's being challenged here is the unlawful conduct, but that conduct of the airlines and the port are governed by federal standards, and so therefore their claims are preempted.

[00:22:42] Speaker 02:
Is it possible that there are emissions that are not air pollutants under the federal law that would permit them to file a state claim?

[00:22:56] Speaker 07:
You know what I mean?

[00:22:59] Speaker 07:
I'm not sure. So there are The scope of the CAA – the Clean Air Act Preemption Provision is broad. Whether there is some kind of pollutant that might exist that doesn't – or some kind of item that might not be an air pollutant, it may not fall within the scope of the Clean Air Act, but it may nonetheless be preempted by any number of other provisions. I mean, the Federal Aviation Act has extremely broad – or, sorry, very extensive regulation about the way in which fuselages or airplanes in general are to be designed, and that, I think, occupies the field.

[00:23:32] Speaker 07:
of kind of airworthiness of various aspects of the plane. And so even if a claim may not fall within the scope of the Clean Air Act, it may nonetheless be preempted by some other provision like the Federal Aviation Act. Are there any other questions? Thank you.

[00:23:47] Speaker 06:
Okay, thank you.

[00:23:51] Speaker 06:
Mr. Berman, good morning.

[00:23:52] Speaker 01:
Good morning, John.

[00:23:54] Speaker 01:
Steve Berman and Nathan Eamons on behalf of the plaintiffs in this case.

[00:23:58] Speaker 01:
Let me start by saying that I think procedure matters here.

[00:24:03] Speaker 01:
it matters greatly because we haven't heard the defendants mention the procedural posture that this motion was decided on. And that is, as the district court noted, preemption is an affirmative defense and you don't grant a motion to dismiss on an affirmative defense unless the complaint actually please all the elements of that preemption.

[00:24:26] Speaker 06:
That's true. I mean, I think the, the issue with the case obviously is that it, it, starts to bear on some areas of law that have a lot of federal law, aviation and air quality. And so I think that's why I think the district court granted the 1292B request to put it up here so that we could take a look at it before further discovery or investment in the case. And so I guess the question I would have is, you know, particularly under the Clean Air Act provision, the Section 233 argument, how do you respond to just the plain text there?

[00:24:58] Speaker 01:
I respond to the plain text the way the district court did. Two ways, actually. First, the district court said, under this court's decision in Navy, you make these determinations on a case-by-case basis. And right now, on this record, it's their burden to show that they are in compliance with all federal regulations. Not our burden.

[00:25:20] Speaker 06:
Have you alleged they're violating any federal regulations?

[00:25:22] Speaker 01:
We're not. And they come in and say, we're in full compliance. They imply, as the district court found, they're implying they're in compliance, but no one knows that. What they could have done is brought a factual attack and come in and said, we're actually in full compliance. The emissions that we're putting out are exactly what the regulators said we can do. And therefore, but they didn't do that. They didn't do that.

[00:25:47] Speaker 06:
The question is whether that was their burden when the allegation here was that it violated state tort law. I mean, I think you're You're right that the district court relied on the Navy case, so maybe we should go back to that because I think it's an important part of at least the district court's analysis. So the argument's made, well, that case is a little different because it involves more like a stationary structure. So do you think that matters?

[00:26:07] Speaker 01:
I don't think it matters because what matters at this stage of the case is we allege that there was an unlawful intrusion on our property. They come back and say, well, this is all permitted, but we don't know that. Let's take, for example, your questions, Judge Paez. about the different kinds of material that we claim are coming onto our client's property. They say that it's air pollution. Well, we make a distinction in the complaint, and that's at ER 56 and 57, between air pollution and heavy metals.

[00:26:43] Speaker 01:
And we also make a distinction in the complaint at paragraphs 54 and 55 of gases coming out of the back, which I would agree are emissions, Flaking of heavy metals off the fuselage.

[00:26:57] Speaker 06:
But isn't that all subject to the Clean Air Act?

[00:26:59] Speaker 01:
I don't believe that the flaking is. And on this record, they haven't established that it is. They didn't put in any declarations or any evidence on a factual attack to say this flaking is permitted. It's regular. What if the flaking is this big?

[00:27:15] Speaker 06:
There's no allegation that it's that big, right? I thought we're talking about fine particulate matter that lands and maybe creates a dusting almost.

[00:27:23] Speaker 01:
Well, we're talking about toxic heavy metals that are coming down on our client's property from flaking, and they have not established that flaking is covered by the CAA or any regulation.

[00:27:35] Speaker 02:
Well, I think the argument is that if it's an air pollutant, it's an emission from an aircraft or an engine thereof.

[00:27:45] Speaker 01:
Is it an air? I'm sorry, Your Honor.

[00:27:47] Speaker 02:
Well, and then the question is, do they need to go further than that when you have the Massachusetts EPA case that talks about any kind of compounds, air panels, that are of whatever stripe. So why do they need to do anything more than to cite the statute and the breadth of the statute?

[00:28:11] Speaker 01:
Because if they're not in compliance with the statute and they're depositing materials that aren't allowed or in amounts that aren't approved, then they don't have a preemption defense, right? We've alleged intrusion. They're coming back as an affirmative defense saying this is all allowed, but they haven't made a showing that it's allowed. That's what the district court was troubled with.

[00:28:33] Speaker 06:
I think it's maybe allowed isn't the right word, but maybe preempted is the word.

[00:28:37] Speaker 01:
That's what the district court was troubled by. We don't know, he said. We don't know if this is authorized. We don't know if it's permitted. Let's take some discovery and find out. You said maybe we should get to this earlier rather than later, but I think on a procedural matter, that we're in the right position. We've alleged what we have to allege to state a state law claim.

[00:28:59] Speaker 01:
They want to assert this affirmative defense. They can't do it facially because they're just hypothetically saying we're in compliance, as the judge found. And as this court has said, hypothetical conflicts aren't enough to create preemption.

[00:29:14] Speaker 02:
Have you alleged a violation of the federal law?

[00:29:16] Speaker 01:
We have not.

[00:29:17] Speaker 02:
I didn't think so.

[00:29:18] Speaker 01:
We have not. We very carefully did not because we don't have enough evidence. All what they're doing is in their records. Right. We don't know what they're doing. So we couldn't allege a violation.

[00:29:30] Speaker 02:
What landed on your clients.

[00:29:32] Speaker 01:
Right.

[00:29:32] Speaker 02:
Land.

[00:29:33] Speaker 01:
But we don't know if it if the way it's coming out of the airplane, for example, exceeds what's allowed by the regulators. We just don't know that. That's what discovery is for. That's what Judge Whitehead thinks.

[00:29:45] Speaker 06:
Right. But the nature of the claim is not that we have a theoretical federal law claim we want to investigate if it's true. The theory is we have state law liability that can exist on top of the federal law. And so we hear arguments from the other side saying, well, gosh, if that's true, we're going to have basically litigation about every airport in the Ninth Circuit, and we'll be exposing passengers and companies and everyone involved in this to different legal standards. How do you address that?

[00:30:13] Speaker 01:
Well, we address it that, again – That's hypothetical, and we allege that the SeaTac airport is unusual. That's in the complaint that you obviously have read a couple times. It's unusual in that it only goes one way. So most airports, you can come in from north, south, east, and west. But because of the unique one-way aspect of SeaTac, which we allege, and because it's kind of in a valley, there's a unique circumstance that of accumulation of pollution.

[00:30:44] Speaker 06:
But aren't the roots into that essentially federally prescribed? I mean, somebody can't fly into it a different way under federal law.

[00:30:50] Speaker 01:
That's right. But I'm responding now to the argument this is going to happen everywhere. Now, they said that two years ago when we were arguing the motion to dismiss. We won the motion to dismiss. No one's filed a case. And one of the reasons, I think, is because SeaTac is very unusual. So you're not going to see this patchwork threatening the airline industry all over the place. And on that issue, I think why procedure matters is we don't know. This goes to both ADA preemption and Clean Air Act preemption.

[00:31:23] Speaker 01:
We don't know exactly how the airlines would respond. They say that we're trying to change flight paths or they will have to change flight paths. We're saying, no, keep flying.

[00:31:34] Speaker 06:
We're happy. But does it matter? I mean, if it's keep flying, but pay money in order to fly the routes that you're federally prescribed, doesn't that raise the same preemption issue?

[00:31:44] Speaker 01:
I don't think it does, because there's nothing in any of the preemption arguments they cite to that suggest that, again, we have a presumption against preemption, that Congress wanted to take away the tort remedies that we are asserting on behalf of our clients, that Congress expressly or implyingly intended that people who are poisoned by these flights are remedies.

[00:32:13] Speaker 02:
Stop right there, people who are poisoned.

[00:32:16] Speaker 02:
If they are poisoned from an emission of an air pollutant from the aircraft or the aircraft engine, that is lamentable, but why isn't that preemptive?

[00:32:29] Speaker 01:
Because you look to see whether what we're doing under the ADA is trying to change, the words are whether the state law is a law related to a price, route, or service.

[00:32:43] Speaker 06:
I think we're back to the Clean Air Act. We're jumping around here, but I think we're back to the Clean Air Act.

[00:32:48] Speaker 01:
I have so many interceptor missiles fired at me that it's hard to keep them all straight.

[00:32:54] Speaker 02:
I think the question is... The question is, under the Clean Air Act, if there's some terrible poisonous emission that is coming from the aircraft, why isn't that...

[00:33:09] Speaker 02:
an air pollutant from the aircraft or aircraft engine, and then therefore preempted under the CAA.

[00:33:19] Speaker 01:
Because under California versus Navy, what the court there said is, A, you have to look at whether there's a way to get some relief that doesn't change the operation of the aircraft.

[00:33:33] Speaker 02:
Okay, that's directly out of... Right, but it seems to me that the Navy case is preempted. You got an aircraft engine or you got some testing sitting in a hangar on the ground somewhere, and that's very different than any of the other cases.

[00:33:49] Speaker 01:
Well, let's take the Montalvo case.

[00:33:52] Speaker 02:
Okay.

[00:33:52] Speaker 01:
In the Montalvo case, what the court there said is, well, the airlines have not yet produced any evidence that reconfiguration of the seating would have a material impact on federal deregulation. And we're in the same stage here. The airlines have not put forward any evidence, any declarations, and we don't know that if we went and pursued this lawsuit that there would be a material impact on services, on pricing, or on routing.

[00:34:24] Speaker 01:
There could be no impact on routing because they're just going to keep flying. The fact that there might be an impact on pricing, this court has said, is not enough.

[00:34:34] Speaker 02:
You know, and now we talk about incoming missiles. You're jumping – provisions there as well.

[00:34:40] Speaker 02:
We were talking about the Clean Air Act as the foundational preemption, at least initially, and then, of course, we have the ADA as well.

[00:34:56] Speaker 02:
Tell me this.

[00:34:58] Speaker 02:
What is the discovery that you would set out to get to the issue that, in your view, would preempt preemption?

[00:35:11] Speaker 01:
Good question. Number one, we would want discovery from the airlines and the port on the flaking issue. Is the flaking regulated? Is it authorized?

[00:35:22] Speaker 01:
What do you know about it? With respect to the emissions, we would want to know what are the emissions and how do they compare with what you were allowed? And then we would want our experts to to postulate or explain to the district court, which is what's contemplated by the Navy case, is there a way to come to a resolution that doesn't cause a change in the aircraft engine?

[00:35:50] Speaker 02:
So let's say that they've exceeded emissions standards, whether under the EPA or some FAA-authorized manufacturing authority. Wouldn't that then be a federal suit?

[00:36:08] Speaker 02:
on violation of those regulations and not a state court claim?

[00:36:13] Speaker 01:
Well, I think we could, I would still maintain my state court claims and use the violation of the admissions regulations as a predicate, additional predicate for those claims.

[00:36:27] Speaker 04:
Could I just trigger off Judge McEwen's question there about the state law claims?

[00:36:34] Speaker 04:
So what is the negligence theory, let's say, with respect to Alaska?

[00:36:40] Speaker 01:
I don't have a negligence theory.

[00:36:43] Speaker 04:
You don't have a negligence theory?

[00:36:44] Speaker 01:
I think our claims are trespass, nuisance.

[00:36:46] Speaker 04:
You didn't allege negligence?

[00:36:49] Speaker 01:
Off the top of my head, I'm not recalling that.

[00:36:53] Speaker 01:
But the gravamen of our case is an unwanted intrusion on our property. That's a classic trespass, nuisance theory. and inverse condemnation claim. You're taking my property.

[00:37:07] Speaker 01:
If there's a negligence claim, I'm sorry, I don't recall it. And so what I claim, what we claim, the airlines have done unlawfully, is to enter our property, right, and damage our property.

[00:37:20] Speaker 04:
That's a trespass.

[00:37:21] Speaker 01:
It's a trespass.

[00:37:23] Speaker 04:
And what's the nuisance?

[00:37:26] Speaker 01:
Same thing. It's a nuisance.

[00:37:28] Speaker 04:
To enter the property.

[00:37:29] Speaker 01:
To enter the property in an unwanted fashion.

[00:37:32] Speaker 04:
Mm-hmm.

[00:37:32] Speaker 01:
I tried a nuisance trespass case against the Florida Seattle in this courtroom. But is the whole focus of the case just clean up? Yes. That's why I don't think the preemption is an issue. We don't care. Just clean up. Clean up after yourself. Keep flying. Don't change prices. Don't change routes. Just if you're going to dump your material on us, your poison on us, clean it up.

[00:37:56] Speaker 06:
But doesn't the statute direct us to the source of this? I mean, the Clean Air Act in particular is asking – It refers to emission of any air pollutant from any aircraft or engine. So it may be that you would like cleanup, but is it not still the case that we're talking about emissions from an aircraft or an engine?

[00:38:17] Speaker 01:
Well, we are in part. Again, I don't believe that they've established that the flaking is an emission rather than

[00:38:25] Speaker 06:
But the flaking, I mean, I think flaking is a kind of generic term, and when you hear it, you might think of something that's a bigger flake. But the allegations and the complaint are really about fine particulate matter.

[00:38:36] Speaker 06:
That's what's pled.

[00:38:37] Speaker 01:
But if you read the – well, it's actually pled differently with respect to the materials coming out of the back of the plate. We recognize those are omissions, as the word is used in Section 233.

[00:38:50] Speaker 01:
As for the particulate matter that's flaking, that's not an omission. And I don't think they've established that that's considered a mission.

[00:38:58] Speaker 04:
So, you know, I hate to sort of dwell on matters that may be unimportant, but, you know, as I look at the complaint, which I have right in front of me, claims, resident class claims, count one, negligence alleged by plaintiffs against all defendants on behalf of the resident class.

[00:39:20] Speaker 01:
Okay. I stand corrected. Right.

[00:39:24] Speaker 04:
And they have another one against the other defendants.

[00:39:25] Speaker 01:
And so I would say the negligent act is depositing poison on my client's property without the emissions, without cleaning it up.

[00:39:35] Speaker 04:
Yes. Whatever comes out of the plane.

[00:39:36] Speaker 01:
Yes.

[00:39:38] Speaker 01:
How could that be? How could that be negligence?

[00:39:41] Speaker 01:
Because you're not cleaning it up. You know that you're hurting me. You know from these studies that you're poisoning me.

[00:39:47] Speaker 04:
Wait a minute. So negligence, you know, a basic negligence claim rests on on duty. So what's the basis of the duty here?

[00:40:00] Speaker 01:
I think they have, if they're operating over someone's property, they have a duty of care. And they breach that duty of care by poisoning these people and not cleaning it up.

[00:40:12] Speaker 01:
And on the CAA preemption argument, I would point out to your honor, on the Silkwood case, where the court in the Silkwood case that says, even where the federal government comprehensively regulates an industry, Congress assumed that state law remedies, in whatever form they might take, were available to those injured.

[00:40:33] Speaker 01:
And I think that it would be an extraordinary broad reading of the CIA to say it gives them immunity from doing what they did. I mean, you've obviously read all, this is not a good situation. This is an underprivileged community that's been poisoned. And the notion that they can't do anything about it, I think, is pretty extraordinary. It's extraordinary for immunity.

[00:40:55] Speaker 01:
And again, all the district court judge did on these issues was to say, we don't really know what's going on here. So I'm going to take a pragmatic approach. And on a facial attack, you didn't properly make it because we did not plead into the affirmative defense. We avoided it. So let's go back and find out what's going on there. And so I know I have more time.

[00:41:20] Speaker 04:
Could you explain to me the theory of your inverse condemnation claim?

[00:41:25] Speaker 01:
Yes, that under Washington law, that there's really an overlap between nuisance and trespass and condemnation. And you've come and taken or diminished the value of my property, and that's a taking, which the district court upheld that claim.

[00:41:45] Speaker 01:
And I actually tried a taking case on the same theory against the Port of Seattle in this very courtroom about 12 years ago, and our theory was condemnation. and nuisance and trespass. Those are kind of the basic claims you see in any airport noise or lawsuit relating to the airports.

[00:42:09] Speaker 01:
So unless you have any further questions, Your Honors, I think I've covered what I want to cover. Okay.

[00:42:17] Speaker 06:
Thank you, Mr. Brennan.

[00:42:19] Speaker 06:
We'll hear first from Mr. Dabrowski.

[00:42:28] Speaker 05:
Thank you. Let me start with Judge Paez's question about how you read the complaint. It's not about how you read the complaint. It's about how you understand the complaint as a matter of law. And I thought the colloquy with Mr. Berman was very instructive on that. The duty of care isn't the failure to doesn't come from the failure to clean up. The duty of care would be under Washington law not to pollute in the first place. But the alleged pollution is a result of, again, flying federally regulated aircraft and engines on federally regulated flight paths.

[00:42:58] Speaker 05:
Second, with respect to the question that you asked, Judge Paez, is anyone responsible? We detail in our brief at pages 17 to 20 all of the ways in which the EPA and the FAA, the agencies themselves, take into account the effects of emissions on surrounding neighborhoods, including at SeaTac in particular. And as to the preemption question, the Supreme Court held in the city of Burbank that an ordinance about late night takeoffs was preempted, even though Congress hadn't set up any sort of a scheme where the neighborhoods who are affected by the late-night takeoffs, could recover.

[00:43:29] Speaker 05:
So that doesn't affect the preemption analysis.

[00:43:33] Speaker 05:
With respect to discovery, the court asked Mr. Berman, what would you like to get in discovery? I wrote down three things that he listed. One, is flaking regulated? That's not a fact question. That's a question of law, and it's plainly covered by the Clean Air Act. Second, what are the emissions and were they allowed?

[00:43:49] Speaker 06:
Pause there on the flaking. So There are arguments being made maybe that flaking is not covered by the Clean Air Act. So elaborate on this point for us.

[00:44:00] Speaker 05:
The Clean Air Act, again, covers any air pollutant from any aircraft or engine. So I'd focus on two things about that language. One, the Clean Air Act covers things not just from the engine, but from the aircraft. Thinking of flaking as something that comes from the aircraft is the ordinary understanding of that language. Second, the Clean Air Act defines air pollutant. Again, it's 42 USC 7602G. It's quite a broad definition. It's any air pollutant agent or matter which is emitted into or otherwise enters into the ambient air.

[00:44:32] Speaker 05:
As the court's question suggested, when you read their complaint, they're talking about very fine matter, very fine soot that comes from the aircraft. That is under the plain language of the statute, an emission from the aircraft. An airplane wing would not be covered by this. I don't think as a matter of ordinary reading of that statute that that would be considered.

[00:44:53] Speaker 02:
Somewhere between tiny flakes and big airplane parts.

[00:44:57] Speaker 05:
Wherever that line is, if you think there is one. Again, the language of their complaint is talking about very fine soot and very fine particulate matter that comfortably fits within this statutory definition, which to the court's questions to Mr. Peters, I think that's the easiest way to resolve this case. Although I think impossibility preemption is a close second, it might be.

[00:45:15] Speaker 04:
So how do you respond to Mr. Berman's argument that, you know, when they pled, when they alleged, drafted the complaint and made their allegations, they were sensitive to, I gathered from what I took from him, is that they were sensitive to these preemption issues and they were careful not to only allege state law claims and to craft the complaint in a way that they thought would survive. And the district court seemed to believe, you know, go along with that. The district court agreed that That preemption is a defense.

[00:45:49] Speaker 04:
The allegations in the complaint don't really get to the factual predicates for preemption.

[00:45:56] Speaker 04:
And it's really your burden to come forward. And you didn't come forward with any evidence, so we just look at the allegations in the complaint. That's all we have.

[00:46:06] Speaker 04:
How do you respond to his concerns?

[00:46:08] Speaker 05:
That's just not how preemption law works. I'm glad that they were sensitive to the preemption problem. I don't think they've overcome it. Is preemption a defense? I'm sorry? Is it a defense? It is a defense.

[00:46:21] Speaker 04:
Okay.

[00:46:22] Speaker 05:
But if you look at how the Supreme Court has analyzed preemption in cases like Pleva and Bartlett, the pharmaceutical cases, the question is not is there some hypothetical way that maybe you could come up with that you could comply with both state and federal law? The question is, you take federal law as you find it. What does federal law require? And is the state law cause of action? Is complying with the state law duties as the plaintiffs see them? Is that putting you in conflict with federal law?

[00:46:55] Speaker 05:
And here, again, their complaint, if you read it, is dependent on emissions. That's the basis for the duty to clean up in the first place. That makes it a state law standard respecting emissions. And it also puts them in conflict with the extensive federal regulations about routes, about airplane flight paths, aircraft design, emissions from the engines, and so forth. And none of this would be unique to SeaTac. If you look at any other airport in the country, if you look-

[00:47:28] Speaker 04:
You know, that maybe if that's what they're asking for, then maybe this is all preempted. But it's too soon to make that decision. How do you respond to what the district court did?

[00:47:39] Speaker 05:
Candidly, I don't understand that logic because I don't understand, as I think your own question suggested to Mr. Berman, I don't understand how you can separate out the remedy from there being an underlying state law duty. The state law duty, this goes back to my example with my neighbor. My neighbor is not upset with me because I haven't paid his medical expenses. My neighbor would be upset with me if I punched him. Here, the state law duty that they're alleging has to be not to pollute. It doesn't matter what words they put on the page of their complaint, whether they phrased it differently on the page of the complaint.

[00:48:11] Speaker 05:
Paper doesn't refuse ink. You can write it in the complaint to say, oh, we're really challenging the cleanup costs. But the only way to understand that as a matter of law is that what you are challenging is the unlawful conduct that precipitated the cleanup costs in the first place. And if Washington law makes it unlawful to emit at certain levels when approaching the airport, that directly conflicts with federal law. And nothing about that is unique to SeaTac. If you look at any other airport in the country, sure, there are flight paths that are set in advance, but that's also going to be dependent on what air traffic control says with respect to weather and the other flights in the area, et cetera.

[00:48:48] Speaker 05:
It's not like when you approach SeaTac, the pilots can only go one way, right? There's going to be some variation on that based on the conditions. There's nothing unique about SeaTac in that respect that would prevent this sort of lawsuit from proliferating everywhere in the country. As to why it hasn't come up in the last couple of years, well, the complaint was brought. I do think it has obvious preemption problems that they were sensitive to, and this court granted review. And so I think if this court were to affirm, that is what would lead to the sorts of problems that we're forecasting.

[00:49:18] Speaker 06:
Okay. Thank you. Thank you. We'll hear from Mr. Tehrani. He has the last word here.

[00:49:27] Speaker 03:
Thank you, Your Honor. On the inverse condemnation claim against the port, all of the arguments that Delta and Alaska have made this morning apply with equal force to the inverse condemnation claim. Plaintiffs have never argued to the contrary. On the timing of this court's resolution of the issues in this case, This court and the Supreme Court regularly dismiss cases on preemption grounds based on 12B6. In the ADA context, the U.S.

[00:49:58] Speaker 03:
Supreme Court did that in Wallens. It did that in Ginsburg. This court did it in Inray Korean Airlines. In the implied preemption context, this court dismissed aviation-related claims on implied preemption grounds on 12B6 grounds in Montalvo. and in National Federation for the Blind. The simple fact is that there are no facts that can change the fundamental truth about this complaint, which is that it is a direct attack on the defendant's ordinary flight operations into and out of SeaTac.

[00:50:34] Speaker 03:
There are no facts that can change the fundamental truth that the plaintiffs are seeking to override the FAA's expert judgment about the flight paths and the altitudes that the defendant should fly. And there are no facts that can change the fundamental truth that the plaintiffs are seeking to use state law to second guess the EPA's determination about permissible emissions standards. The failure to clean up theory that plaintiffs have developed on appeal can't cover up, can't conceal the fact that this complaint is challenging omissions from ordinary flight operations.

[00:51:15] Speaker 03:
What the defendants have supposedly failed to clean up is the ordinary byproduct of flights into and out of SeaTac along federally prescribed flight paths at federally prescribed altitudes. For all of these reasons, this complaint is preempted multiple times over.

[00:51:34] Speaker 06:
Thank you. We thank all of you for your arguments. This is one of those cases that has a lot of lawyers working on it, and I'm sure there's some younger lawyers who were working on it too, so we thank them for their work. This case is submitted. We'll stand in recess until tomorrow morning.