[00:00:00] Speaker 04: Case number 24-7063, Michaela Smith at Balance v. Howard University. [00:00:08] Speaker 04: Ms. [00:00:08] Speaker 04: Dotson, the appointed amicus curiae, Mr. Previs for the appellee. [00:00:14] Speaker 03: Good morning. [00:00:16] Speaker 03: Ms. [00:00:16] Speaker 03: Dotson, please proceed when you're ready. [00:00:20] Speaker 04: Good morning, Your Honors. [00:00:21] Speaker 04: Eva Schall with the Georgetown Appellate Litigation Clinic. [00:00:24] Speaker 04: With the court's permission, Ali Dotson will be presenting arguments on behalf of amicus. [00:00:30] Speaker 03: Thank you. [00:00:33] Speaker 03: Stotson. [00:00:35] Speaker 02: Good morning, and may it please the court. [00:00:38] Speaker 02: Ms. [00:00:38] Speaker 02: Smith enrolled at Howard with the goal of practicing medicine in her underserved community of Shreveport, Louisiana. [00:00:46] Speaker 02: Instead, she was expelled following a one-sided disciplinary proceeding, while her male peers received leniency for similar conduct. [00:00:55] Speaker 02: The district court's decision should be reversed for two reasons. [00:00:59] Speaker 02: First, the circumstances indicate that Ms. [00:01:02] Speaker 02: Smith was punished more severely because of her sex. [00:01:05] Speaker 02: And second, Howard breached the terms and spirit of its educational contract with Ms. [00:01:11] Speaker 02: Smith. [00:01:13] Speaker 02: Turning first to Title IX, discriminatory intent is an inherently factual dispute. [00:01:18] Speaker 02: And a reasonable jury could find that Howard discriminated against Ms. [00:01:22] Speaker 02: Smith because she is a woman. [00:01:24] Speaker 02: Ms. [00:01:25] Speaker 02: Smith has provided sufficient evidence to conclude that Howard's asserted excuse for her expulsion is actually protectual. [00:01:32] Speaker 02: First, she has shown that men got lighter punishment for comparable acts. [00:01:38] Speaker 02: Life altering sanctions for women but leeway for men is especially indicative of gender discrimination. [00:01:45] Speaker 02: At least two of the men in this case were accused of an identical offense to Ms. [00:01:50] Speaker 02: Smith but received only a permanent notation in their records. [00:01:54] Speaker 02: And the third man engaged in even more serious conduct. [00:01:58] Speaker 02: He photographed an entire quiz and these pictures were later circulated to other students. [00:02:03] Speaker 02: He was suspended for 30 days and had to give a presentation on professionalism. [00:02:08] Speaker 02: Meanwhile, Ms. [00:02:09] Speaker 02: Smith was expelled. [00:02:11] Speaker 02: And Howard claims that Miss Smith was punished more harshly because she was unremorseful. [00:02:16] Speaker 02: But Miss Smith admitted to altering her answer. [00:02:19] Speaker 02: And even though she explains that it wasn't her intention to cheat, she still apologized for the problem, for her mistake, and for her error. [00:02:29] Speaker 02: The issue isn't that the record contains no expressions of remorse. [00:02:34] Speaker 02: What Howard is really saying is that Miss Smith didn't apologize in the right way. [00:02:39] Speaker 02: This is an inherently subjective standard. [00:02:42] Speaker 02: And these sorts of subjective standards are ripe for abuse by nefarious decision makers in order to conceal their discrimination. [00:02:50] Speaker 00: OK, so we're talking about an honor code. [00:02:56] Speaker 00: And so when you're looking at the comparators here with respect to the men, we're talking about cheating. [00:03:02] Speaker 00: And so admittedly, before she turned in her challenge [00:03:10] Speaker 00: she actually changed her answer on the actual test and then turned in the challenge. [00:03:17] Speaker 00: So ultimately, Howard is expelling her because she actually cheated on the form. [00:03:25] Speaker 00: The second thing in terms of the honor code violation, it appears that with respect to the other comparators, when we go back to your suggestion of the remorse, [00:03:38] Speaker 00: It looks like there's an opportunity for the university to rehabilitate any of the persons who are involved in article violations by giving them an opportunity to acknowledge their conduct by admitting that they actually cheated. [00:03:57] Speaker 00: and then essentially doing something about it. [00:04:01] Speaker 00: And so that's why they're looking at remorse. [00:04:02] Speaker 00: Do you acknowledge what you've done? [00:04:04] Speaker 00: And are you remorseful about it so that it doesn't happen again? [00:04:08] Speaker 00: i.e. [00:04:09] Speaker 00: you could think about ramifications later. [00:04:11] Speaker 00: If you're a physician and then you're later sued for medical malpractice, for example, are you going to change your charting for a patient just to get yourself out from under a particular issue? [00:04:25] Speaker 00: Explain that part to me about you're saying that you don't think that she apologized in the way that they would have her, but that remorse that they're looking at seems to go to the honor in honor code violation. [00:04:40] Speaker 02: Well, the facts in the record don't indicate that the men did. [00:04:44] Speaker 02: apologize in a way that was qualitatively greater than what Ms. [00:04:48] Speaker 02: Smith did. [00:04:49] Speaker 00: For example, if you look to the- But they said they cheated. [00:04:53] Speaker 00: They admit to cheating, and she does not. [00:04:55] Speaker 00: She says, I didn't intend to. [00:04:56] Speaker 02: Not necessarily, Your Honor. [00:04:58] Speaker 02: In the honor code minutes of the student who screenshotted the examination, for example, it says that he admitted to the violation. [00:05:06] Speaker 02: It doesn't say that he had said that he intended to violate the honor code. [00:05:11] Speaker 02: just that he had admitted to the violation. [00:05:14] Speaker 02: In fact, in his previous conversations with Dr. Ford, he had told her that even though he had screenshotted the examination, he hadn't shared it beyond personal use, even though it was later found circulating among other students. [00:05:28] Speaker 02: It's a jury question really as to whether the remorse that Ms. [00:05:32] Speaker 02: Smith expressed was comparable to the remorse expressed by her male peers. [00:05:38] Speaker 02: And this is only one of the ways in which Miss Smith was discriminated against by Howard. [00:05:48] Speaker 03: that she didn't apologize in the right way. [00:05:51] Speaker 03: Everybody apologized, but she didn't apologize in the right way. [00:05:54] Speaker 03: And it seems to me that what the school thought was is not that she didn't apologize in the right way, it's that she didn't apologize for the right thing. [00:06:02] Speaker 03: And those seem to me somewhat different. [00:06:04] Speaker 03: So if somebody says, I'm really sorry that you misunderstood, and then the other person says, I'm really sorry that I cheated. [00:06:14] Speaker 03: Those are both apologies. [00:06:15] Speaker 03: And you could say that one of them is apologizing in a different way from the other one. [00:06:19] Speaker 03: But then they're apologizing for different things. [00:06:21] Speaker 03: And if that's true, then would that undercut your submission that there was differential treatment of like-situated individuals? [00:06:30] Speaker 03: Because they wouldn't be like-situated individuals. [00:06:34] Speaker 02: No, your honor, because of the subjectivity of that remorsefulness analysis, it really does go to a jury. [00:06:41] Speaker 02: And it's ordinarily a question for the jury to address as to whether comparators are similarly situated to the extent there's different inferences that could be drawn from the apologies on the record or the apologies that Howard reports happened. [00:06:57] Speaker 02: That would be a matter for the jury to [00:06:59] Speaker 02: address as a matter of law, we cannot say that Miss Smith was less genuinely remorseful than her male counterparts. [00:07:07] Speaker 03: It can't be that every time there's a comparator that's put forward, it necessarily goes to the jury on whether the comparator is similarly situated. [00:07:16] Speaker 03: There have to be situations in which the court can decide that as a matter of summary judgment, the comparators are not similarly situated. [00:07:23] Speaker 02: Yes, and that does happen, Your Honor, in situations, for example, where the comparators had a different supervisor or they had different jobs in the Title VII context. [00:07:34] Speaker 02: But those are very objective determinations. [00:07:37] Speaker 02: Here, what we have is a subjective dispute of material fact as to the degree of Ms. [00:07:43] Speaker 02: Smith's remorsefulness in this sort of subjective inquiry is best addressed by a jury, especially when it's bolter [00:07:50] Speaker 02: bolstered by evidence of the deficient process and other shortcomings Ms. [00:07:55] Speaker 02: Smith received. [00:07:56] Speaker 02: An accumulation of procedural irregularities, all disfavoring a student of one's sex, begins to look like a biased proceeding. [00:08:05] Speaker 02: And in this case, Ms. [00:08:06] Speaker 02: Smith experienced several of the defects that courts have found to be indicative of bias. [00:08:12] Speaker 02: The Honor Counsel conducted no investigation prior to bringing these allegations against her. [00:08:18] Speaker 02: Dr. Gilland was not present at her hearing and did not submit a written complaint, even though the lab coordinators of male students did so. [00:08:27] Speaker 02: And her appeal was not processed in a timely manner based on this information, as well as the much harsher sanction she received relative to her male peers. [00:08:38] Speaker 02: A jury could find that this was gender discrimination. [00:08:41] Speaker 03: Thank you. [00:08:45] Speaker 03: I have one question for you, actually, before you sit down. [00:08:47] Speaker 03: And we will give you a little time for rebuttal. [00:08:48] Speaker 03: So this is on the contract piece of it. [00:08:51] Speaker 03: There's a back and forth about whether the policy gave rise to contractual rights. [00:09:02] Speaker 03: And was that kind of claim? [00:09:04] Speaker 03: I know there was generally a contract claim discussed in the district court. [00:09:07] Speaker 03: But was the particular idea that the policy itself gave rise to binding contract rights something that was litigated in the district court? [00:09:15] Speaker 02: Amicus believes so, Your Honor. [00:09:17] Speaker 02: There was discussion of the general contractual relationship between a student and their university, and that is colored by what is in the honor code in this case. [00:09:27] Speaker 03: Which sounds like the implied contract claim, which that I think was before the district court. [00:09:32] Speaker 03: But on the idea that the policy itself gave rise to express contract rights, I didn't see where that was specifically pressed and litigated in the district. [00:09:41] Speaker 02: Well, the attorneys at the district court pointed to certain breaches of the honor code, such as not having a properly appointed student member present, that those are honor code procedures, Your Honor. [00:09:55] Speaker 02: And therefore, what they were alleging with the breach was a violation of the honor code, which became part of the employee contract. [00:10:04] Speaker 00: And we as a DC Circuit have not expressly ruled on Title IX in terms of any particular burden shifting, but you relate that McDonnell Douglas is appropriate here. [00:10:17] Speaker 00: Apparently both you and defense have agreed on that. [00:10:21] Speaker 00: Why do you believe that that's the best framework here? [00:10:23] Speaker 00: And then also a sub part of that question is that it seems like we don't have all of the elements presented here in terms of the burden shifting. [00:10:34] Speaker 02: Amicus believes that the McDonnell-Douglas test is the most appropriate framework because of the similarity of Title IX cases in many ways to Title VII cases. [00:10:44] Speaker 02: Additionally, part of why McDonnell-Douglas was created was because it's very difficult to find direct evidence of discrimination in many cases. [00:10:54] Speaker 02: This test was created in order to give plaintiffs with circumstantial evidence a means to get these sorts of discrimination claims redressed, Your Honor. [00:11:04] Speaker 02: So it would be appropriate here. [00:11:07] Speaker 00: Okay. [00:11:07] Speaker 00: And then what about you establishing essentially the prima facie case? [00:11:11] Speaker 00: Do we skip that, allow the employer to go to essentially the legitimate nondiscriminatory reason and then allow you to go to pretext because we're here on summary judgment? [00:11:22] Speaker 02: In our circumstance, I believe that the prima facie case was at issue before the district court. [00:11:28] Speaker 02: And Howard has proffered it's what it claims to be. [00:11:32] Speaker 02: It's non-discriminatory excuse for Ms. [00:11:34] Speaker 02: Smith. [00:11:35] Speaker 02: So now we are in the third step of McDonald Douglas, in which we're really just trying to get at the underlying question of Title IX. [00:11:42] Speaker 02: Could a reasonable jury find there was gender discrimination? [00:11:45] Speaker 03: Thank you. [00:11:55] Speaker 01: privacy. [00:11:57] Speaker 01: May it please the court and good morning. [00:12:02] Speaker 01: The evidence in this case was overwhelming that Ms. [00:12:07] Speaker 01: Smith tried to cheat on the exam. [00:12:12] Speaker 01: And the challenge sheet itself was particularly damning. [00:12:18] Speaker 01: And just to review it quickly, she altered letters and squeezed in letters in a surreptitious [00:12:25] Speaker 01: That's not what you do if you're just trying to seek edification. [00:12:30] Speaker 01: She put on the challenge sheet that her answer to question 14 was posterior semicircular canal. [00:12:37] Speaker 01: That was false. [00:12:38] Speaker 01: That was not her answer. [00:12:40] Speaker 01: She wrote on the challenge sheet, my answer was correct, yet marked wrong. [00:12:45] Speaker 01: That was false. [00:12:47] Speaker 01: She wrote recalculation needed, obviously asking for a grade increase. [00:12:53] Speaker 01: So in this case, [00:12:56] Speaker 01: It was overwhelming evidence that she cheated. [00:12:59] Speaker 01: And certainly, it was not irrational for the university to determine that she cheated. [00:13:11] Speaker 03: But I don't think that's what's being argued. [00:13:13] Speaker 03: I think the other side acknowledges that there was cheating. [00:13:16] Speaker 03: And then the question is, was the response to the cheating on par with the response to the cheating by others? [00:13:22] Speaker 01: Actually, they do not concede that she cheated. [00:13:26] Speaker 01: Ms. [00:13:27] Speaker 01: Smith was very clear, it's on the record, that she did not cheat. [00:13:32] Speaker 01: And that's, we quoted some of her deposition testimony on that in our brief. [00:13:37] Speaker 01: If you look at the minutes of the hearing counsel, it's recorded there that she did not cheat. [00:13:44] Speaker 01: In the lower court, she did not admit cheating. [00:13:47] Speaker 01: At her deposition, she did not admit cheating. [00:13:50] Speaker 01: In this court, in our opening brief and reply brief, she did not admit cheating. [00:13:55] Speaker 03: Yeah, maybe the cheating is the, that's a conclusion as opposed to [00:14:01] Speaker 01: Right. [00:14:01] Speaker 01: Now, what she says is that she apologized for her error and not being clearer. [00:14:08] Speaker 01: But as was pointed out in some of the questioning, she's apologizing for the wrong thing. [00:14:14] Speaker 01: It's like saying, I apologize that you got upset about that. [00:14:19] Speaker 01: OK. [00:14:19] Speaker 01: That's not an apology for your conduct. [00:14:22] Speaker 01: It's an apology. [00:14:24] Speaker 01: It's sort of an excuse for what you did. [00:14:27] Speaker 01: And all of her so-called apologies are actually [00:14:30] Speaker 01: trying to justify her cheating. [00:14:33] Speaker 01: She's not offering apologies for cheating. [00:14:37] Speaker 01: She's offering excuses for cheating. [00:14:42] Speaker 01: And that's what was obvious to the hearing panel. [00:14:46] Speaker 01: I think it's obvious to anyone who looks at the documents. [00:14:51] Speaker 00: She had already passed the exam. [00:14:53] Speaker 00: So what does she gain from all of this? [00:14:55] Speaker 01: What she gains from it is that [00:14:58] Speaker 01: She, and this is spelled out in our brief as well, she was on a failing trajectory for that course. [00:15:04] Speaker 01: She failed the second exam and the second lab exam. [00:15:11] Speaker 01: And she had missed the first exam. [00:15:13] Speaker 01: So as of this point in time, she was on a failing trajectory. [00:15:17] Speaker 01: She knew that if she failed the course, she'd be out because she was a repeating student. [00:15:25] Speaker 01: So because of that, [00:15:28] Speaker 01: She had an incentive to try to get a higher grade on this class. [00:15:34] Speaker 01: Every point counted for her. [00:15:38] Speaker 01: And that was her incentive. [00:15:41] Speaker 01: And regardless of whether she had an incentive or not, she tried to cheat. [00:15:48] Speaker 01: I mean, that's the bottom line. [00:15:50] Speaker 01: We've heard about the comparators, and I think the dialogue so far, [00:15:55] Speaker 01: is right on the money that the comparators all admitted cheating. [00:16:02] Speaker 01: There's some suggested suggestion that one of them, I think it's AC2, been referred to that way, that AC2 admitted the violation. [00:16:12] Speaker 01: Well, that's what's in the minutes of the Honor Council Committee. [00:16:17] Speaker 01: What violation was he admitting other than an honor code violation, which is the reason why they were all there? [00:16:24] Speaker 01: And there was no evidence presented in the record below that AC2 was not admitting to a violation of the honor code. [00:16:34] Speaker 01: I mean, it seems obvious that he was. [00:16:35] Speaker 01: And furthermore, the testimony of the dean and the [00:16:42] Speaker 01: Dr. Callender, who is the HCC chair, all established that they understood him to have admitted the violation. [00:16:50] Speaker 01: So against all of that, the appellant has nothing in terms of evidence. [00:16:56] Speaker 03: If she had admitted to the right thing, just to use the formulation that's been bandied about, but was expelled, then would you acknowledge that at that point the differential treatment would go to the jury? [00:17:12] Speaker 01: If she admitted to cheating, then there are these comparators. [00:17:19] Speaker 01: And I can't think of any reason here why that wouldn't go to the jury. [00:17:24] Speaker 01: But that's not the fact. [00:17:26] Speaker 01: It's not what was argued. [00:17:28] Speaker 01: It's not what the lower court found. [00:17:30] Speaker 01: And there's no evidence to support it. [00:17:33] Speaker 01: So that's my argument on that. [00:17:36] Speaker 01: There was a suggestion also that Dr. Gilland [00:17:42] Speaker 01: was not present. [00:17:45] Speaker 01: Well, Dr. Gilland was not the accuser as far as Howard University was concerned. [00:17:52] Speaker 01: He's not the one that advanced the finding to the upper levels of the medical school. [00:18:00] Speaker 01: And Ms. [00:18:01] Speaker 01: Smith was sent a letter from Dr. Wilson indicating that he was the accuser. [00:18:08] Speaker 01: So Dr. Wilson was present at the hearing. [00:18:13] Speaker 01: Now, Dr. Gilland was not present, but she had never asked him to be present. [00:18:20] Speaker 01: She had never asked the honor counsel to have him present. [00:18:24] Speaker 01: And when pressed to explain what Dr. Gilland could add, what information he could add, she came up with nothing. [00:18:34] Speaker 01: I mean, she said that Dr. Gilland [00:18:37] Speaker 01: hold her that she could fill out the challenge form as she saw in the format that she saw fit. [00:18:42] Speaker 01: Well, it turned out she did use the standard format. [00:18:46] Speaker 01: And there's nothing about that verbal exchange that is exculpatory in any fashion whatsoever. [00:18:54] Speaker 01: She didn't present any evidence in the lower court that Dr. Gilland had something, you know, [00:19:03] Speaker 01: spectacular to say, or anything exculpatory. [00:19:07] Speaker 01: And that way, she didn't depose Dr. Gillen. [00:19:09] Speaker 01: She made no record that Dr. Gillen had any evidence. [00:19:13] Speaker 01: And when she went to the dean, she didn't explain that Dr. Gillen had anything exculpatory to say. [00:19:21] Speaker 01: She complained to the provost, didn't explain that. [00:19:25] Speaker 01: So this whole business about Dr. Gillen is a red herring. [00:19:29] Speaker 00: Just wanted to ask you about her being a repeating student. [00:19:32] Speaker 00: How much of an influence was that on the decision? [00:19:34] Speaker 00: And were any of the other comparators repeating students? [00:19:40] Speaker 01: I don't believe any of the other students were repeating students. [00:19:45] Speaker 01: I don't believe that was the case. [00:19:49] Speaker 01: She was not expelled because she was a repeating student. [00:19:56] Speaker 01: She could have been dismissed. [00:19:59] Speaker 01: for that reason, but that's not the way it happened. [00:20:02] Speaker 01: There's reference to this Promotions and Graduations Committee, which is an academic standards committee. [00:20:13] Speaker 01: It can dismiss a student if they are a repeating student and fail, but that was irrelevant to the decision here. [00:20:21] Speaker 01: As the appellant admitted at her deposition, [00:20:26] Speaker 01: This P and G committee had absolutely nothing to do with the decision. [00:20:30] Speaker 01: It has nothing to do with disciplinary decisions. [00:20:34] Speaker 01: The decision was made by the Dean, if you look at his letter, based on the Honor Council's conclusions and findings. [00:20:41] Speaker 00: And in reference to the breach of contract, [00:20:45] Speaker 00: In the policies and procedure manual, I believe she kind of points out to process a lot and your process for investigating honor code violations. [00:20:54] Speaker 00: There are time parameters. [00:20:56] Speaker 00: There's the sharing of data collected. [00:20:58] Speaker 00: There's notice of the charges. [00:21:01] Speaker 00: There's timing of the decisions and appeal options. [00:21:03] Speaker 00: So she's referring to a lot of the things in the process that she believes did not happen. [00:21:08] Speaker 00: How would you reference those things with respect to the project? [00:21:12] Speaker 01: The trial court went through all those issues and found no problem. [00:21:17] Speaker 01: And I see no problem. [00:21:18] Speaker 01: We've laid that out in our brief. [00:21:21] Speaker 01: On appeal, she tries to raise factual issues that were not raised in the court below. [00:21:26] Speaker 01: We had no opportunity to respond to them, and the judge had no opportunity to address them. [00:21:31] Speaker 01: So it seems inappropriate to us for those to even be considered here on appeal. [00:21:37] Speaker 01: But on all these procedural issues, I think [00:21:42] Speaker 01: I can't see the forest through the trees. [00:21:46] Speaker 01: All of the male students were found to have violated the honor code. [00:21:53] Speaker 01: So there was no instance here where there was some procedural bias that favored the male comparators. [00:22:05] Speaker 01: All of them were found guilty. [00:22:08] Speaker 01: So this is not a case where there's some different outcome that results from procedural differences. [00:22:15] Speaker 01: And the procedural differences are very minor. [00:22:19] Speaker 01: And they don't really affect the ultimate decision. [00:22:25] Speaker 01: They weren't material. [00:22:25] Speaker 01: The ultimate decision was obvious that she had cheated. [00:22:29] Speaker 01: The only difference between her and the male students [00:22:32] Speaker 01: was remorse, and that's not a procedural issue. [00:22:38] Speaker 01: That's not a procedural issue that she was found not to have engaged in remorse. [00:22:42] Speaker 01: That's a substantive issue that goes to the sanction. [00:22:46] Speaker 01: I see them out of time, but if there are any further questions, I'd be happy to address them. [00:22:51] Speaker 03: Thank you, Council. [00:22:57] Speaker 03: Dyson will give you two minutes for rebuttal. [00:23:10] Speaker 02: Two points on rebuttal, your honor. [00:23:13] Speaker 02: Ms. [00:23:14] Speaker 02: Smith did also admit to violating the honor code in the way that Howard asserts the male students did. [00:23:20] Speaker 02: She never denied changing her answer sheet. [00:23:23] Speaker 02: She always admitted to that, first to Dr. Ford and then to the honor counsel. [00:23:28] Speaker 02: In fact, in Provost Wuptow's letter to her, he stated that her words at the Honor Council were an admitted violation of the honor code. [00:23:36] Speaker 02: But the very fact that we're up here arguing about whether her apology was sufficient or whether it was insufficient shows why this dispute is really a jury question. [00:23:48] Speaker 02: Reasonable minds could differ as to whether she apologized sufficiently or why she apologized the way that she did. [00:23:57] Speaker 02: Therefore, this is a question best addressed by a jury. [00:24:01] Speaker 02: Secondly, with regards to the breach of contract claim, Amicus would like to clarify that we are not raising an express contract claim today, but rather looking at the duties that Howard owed to her under this general educational contract. [00:24:17] Speaker 03: I don't know that I meant to say express contract. [00:24:20] Speaker 03: What I'm saying is that the policy itself gave rise to contractual requirements. [00:24:26] Speaker 02: Yes, Your Honor. [00:24:28] Speaker 02: And as far as Howard characterizes these procedural differences as minor or unimportant, that is, again, a matter for the jury to determine. [00:24:38] Speaker 02: The extent to which Miss Smith was harmed by these procedural breaches is a classic question of fact. [00:24:45] Speaker 02: Whether Dr. Gilland would have provided exculpatory evidence, or not even necessarily that, if his presence could have helped her in some way, [00:24:54] Speaker 02: If a properly constituted student body could have perhaps come to a different decision, those are all questions that are best addressed by the jury rather than as a matter of law. [00:25:05] Speaker 02: Thank you. [00:25:07] Speaker 03: Thank you, Ms. [00:25:07] Speaker 03: Dawson. [00:25:08] Speaker 03: Thank you, Mr. Prywest. [00:25:10] Speaker 03: We'll take this case under submission. [00:25:11] Speaker 03: Ms. [00:25:12] Speaker 03: Dawson, you and the Appellate Litigation Program were appointed by the court to present arguments assisting the appellate in this matter, and the court thanks you for your able assistance.