[00:00:00] Speaker 03: USA versus United States. [00:01:29] Speaker 03: Okay, Mr. Rucker. [00:01:35] Speaker 02: Good morning, Your Honors. [00:01:36] Speaker 02: You may have policed the court. [00:01:38] Speaker 02: My name is Randy Rucker, and I am here on behalf of Plaintiff Appellant Home Depot. [00:01:43] Speaker 02: I have counsel from Home Depot here with me, Mr. Joel Rogers, and my partner, Kathy Murphy. [00:01:49] Speaker 02: We're here on a tariff classification appeal, Your Honors, and we're here to talk about a product that we call doorknobs. [00:01:57] Speaker 02: I brought a demonstrative exhibit. [00:01:59] Speaker 02: Which might also be called locks, right? [00:02:01] Speaker 02: Yes. [00:02:02] Speaker 02: So we acknowledge that some folks may call a doorknob a lock. [00:02:06] Speaker 02: It's primarily focused on the functionality. [00:02:10] Speaker 02: Okay? [00:02:11] Speaker 02: So what we've done is, pardon the pun, tried to key in on the primary issues in this case. [00:02:19] Speaker 02: We say this case is about doorknobs and whether doorknobs are classifiable as doorknobs or key operated locks. [00:02:26] Speaker 02: This is the language that you'll find in heading 8301. [00:02:29] Speaker 02: Heading 8302 doesn't include the word doorknobs, but if you look to the explanatory notes of 8302, that's the place you'll find the word doorknobs. [00:02:41] Speaker 02: It doesn't appear in any other explanatory note or language of the tariff. [00:02:47] Speaker 02: Is a doorknob a doorknob or is it a lot? [00:02:51] Speaker 02: Your Honor just identified that interpretation. [00:02:54] Speaker 02: Well, it's not enough to say it's a lot. [00:02:57] Speaker 02: It has to be a key-operated lock to fall in heading 83. [00:03:02] Speaker 03: Well, yours are key-operated locks, right? [00:03:04] Speaker 02: I'm sorry, Your Honor. [00:03:06] Speaker 03: Your product is key-operated, isn't it? [00:03:09] Speaker 02: No, it's not. [00:03:10] Speaker 03: What does that mean? [00:03:11] Speaker 02: You mean because it doesn't throw the bolt? [00:03:13] Speaker 02: That's correct, Your Honor. [00:03:14] Speaker 02: So that's why I think this demonstration exhibit is so important. [00:03:17] Speaker 04: So I understand, though. [00:03:19] Speaker 04: For your merchandise, you need a key in order to lock or unlock the doorknob, right? [00:03:25] Speaker 04: No, you don't. [00:03:25] Speaker 02: You don't need to turn around and you look at these to unlock it from the outside. [00:03:30] Speaker 02: You need a key to operate the locking mechanism from the outside. [00:03:34] Speaker 00: If it's locked, if I walk up to the door and I say, what am I going to do with this key? [00:03:39] Speaker 00: I'm going to unlock the lock, right? [00:03:41] Speaker 02: That's correct. [00:03:41] Speaker 02: You're going to put it in the unlocked state, right? [00:03:45] Speaker 02: It's not operating the doorknob mechanism. [00:03:48] Speaker 02: And that's the distinction, your honor. [00:03:50] Speaker 02: It's a key distinction here. [00:03:51] Speaker 02: That is important. [00:03:53] Speaker 02: The functionality. [00:03:56] Speaker 02: that's relevant here relates to the tariff language. [00:03:59] Speaker 02: And the tariff language is key-operated lock. [00:04:03] Speaker 02: There are a variety of indicators that help us differentiate between 8301 and 8302 because they both cover four facets. [00:04:11] Speaker 03: So if we reject your contention that key-operated means that it has to throw a bolt, then it's a key-operated lock, right? [00:04:19] Speaker 02: If you reject the contention that it has to throw the bolt, then yes, that's correct. [00:04:23] Speaker 02: And that's what the lower court interpreted. [00:04:25] Speaker 02: they created additional ambiguity in the tariff, rather than clarifying the specific language that exists between 8301 and 8302. [00:04:33] Speaker 02: They didn't do their job. [00:04:35] Speaker 00: I don't understand your answer to Judge Dyke's question, because I thought your position was that while you think that this is not the lock in your product, is not a key operated lock, that nonetheless the doorknob [00:04:53] Speaker 00: even though it has perhaps a key operated lock in it, is nonetheless a doorknob that simply incidentally happens to have a lock in it. [00:05:02] Speaker 00: And it therefore is under 8302, not 8301. [00:05:06] Speaker 02: No, that's correct, Your Honor. [00:05:08] Speaker 00: But the answer you just gave to Judge Dyke, I think perhaps I misunderstood. [00:05:11] Speaker 00: And maybe I misunderstood. [00:05:12] Speaker 00: But I thought you were saying if you lose on key operated lock, that is to say, if we conclude that your product has a key operated lock, then 8301 [00:05:22] Speaker 00: Okay. [00:05:23] Speaker 02: My apologies, Your Honor. [00:05:24] Speaker 02: What I should have said is, and I thought you had said, if you determine our product is a key operated lock, it goes in 8301. [00:05:31] Speaker 02: That's what I thought your question was. [00:05:32] Speaker 02: Yes, we lose on that. [00:05:33] Speaker 02: If you determine it's a key operated lock. [00:05:35] Speaker 00: If it is a key operated lock, as opposed to having a key operated lock within the doorknob. [00:05:40] Speaker 02: Correct. [00:05:40] Speaker 00: Which you would say nonetheless fits within 8302. [00:05:44] Speaker 02: Correct. [00:05:45] Speaker 02: Yes. [00:05:45] Speaker 02: So that very well put, Your Honor, and thank you for that clarification. [00:05:48] Speaker 04: But if I could clarify further, [00:05:51] Speaker 04: You would still contend, of course, your merchandise fits under 8302. [00:05:58] Speaker 04: But would you also be agreeing then that it also fits under 8301? [00:06:04] Speaker 04: And so therefore, we would have to move on to GRI 3? [00:06:07] Speaker 02: Right. [00:06:07] Speaker 02: And then that's a great point, Your Honor. [00:06:09] Speaker 02: So to get to 8301 for our product, you have to go to GRI 3. [00:06:14] Speaker 04: But just to understand what I think you agreed in part with Judge Dyke's question. [00:06:21] Speaker 04: you would agree that if we see that your merchandise has a key operated lock, that you would agree that it fits under 8301, but nevertheless it also fits under 8302. [00:06:33] Speaker 04: Is that what you're saying or do you have some other argument against why the merchandise does not fit under 8301? [00:06:42] Speaker 02: Well, there's several, actually there's many arguments why it wouldn't fit under 8301. [00:06:46] Speaker 02: As I mentioned, you've got to distinguish between the fasteners that go in 8301, the door fasteners, [00:06:51] Speaker 02: 8301 and 8302. [00:06:52] Speaker 02: 8301 only covers these types of door fasteners. [00:06:57] Speaker 02: And we talked about that. [00:06:58] Speaker 02: E throws the bolt. [00:07:01] Speaker 00: That's your position. [00:07:01] Speaker 00: You're back to the key operated lock argument. [00:07:04] Speaker 02: Yes. [00:07:04] Speaker 00: We're predicating this question, and I think all three of our questions were predicated on the notion that perhaps we don't agree with you, that your product does not have a key operated lock. [00:07:16] Speaker 00: If we so conclude, the question is, is there any argument [00:07:20] Speaker 00: that this should not be treated as a composite. [00:07:24] Speaker 02: Well, I think to get to 8301, you've got to consider it as a composite. [00:07:28] Speaker 02: It's got the keyed cylinder, but you look at these other products, they don't. [00:07:33] Speaker 02: They're all the same. [00:07:34] Speaker 02: They're the same basic form, function, and use. [00:07:36] Speaker 02: That's what you need to look at. [00:07:37] Speaker 02: Do they have the form, function, and use of a doorknob? [00:07:40] Speaker 02: Yes, every one of them does. [00:07:42] Speaker 02: You add a keyed cylinder, and it's this simple component. [00:07:46] Speaker 02: I brought one with me just to make sure I remind myself what we're talking about. [00:07:50] Speaker 02: We're talking about locking cylinders added to a doorknob. [00:07:54] Speaker 02: To your honor's point, that becomes GRI 3. [00:07:56] Speaker 03: How does that fit within 8302? [00:07:59] Speaker 03: It fits within the 8302. [00:08:00] Speaker 03: Because 8302 seems to be talking about doorknobs separate from one another. [00:08:07] Speaker 02: Well, that's an interesting point, your honor. [00:08:10] Speaker 02: We already have precedent from the Canadian International Trade Tribunal that says that's not the case. [00:08:14] Speaker 02: And that's persuasive precedent here. [00:08:16] Speaker 02: We acknowledge it's not binding. [00:08:18] Speaker 02: We acknowledge. [00:08:19] Speaker 02: But it's persuasive international precedent. [00:08:22] Speaker 02: Put that aside. [00:08:23] Speaker 03: Put that aside. [00:08:24] Speaker 03: Why isn't 8302 talking about doorknobs that are parts of locks rather than locks that include doorknobs? [00:08:34] Speaker 02: Well, it may be talking about both, Your Honor. [00:08:36] Speaker 02: I don't think there's a distinction in the explanatory notes that gets you to the point to say it's just doorknobs. [00:08:41] Speaker 02: And let's take it a step further. [00:08:43] Speaker 02: The doorknobs themselves are just components. [00:08:45] Speaker 03: But there's no suggestion in the explanatory note [00:08:49] Speaker 03: They're talking about the complete assembly of the doorknob and the lock. [00:08:53] Speaker 02: Well, they talk about latches. [00:08:55] Speaker 02: A doorknob's a latch. [00:08:57] Speaker 02: By primary function design and use, it's a door latch. [00:09:00] Speaker 02: Latches are covered specifically in the 8302 ENs, but the lower court failed to acknowledge that. [00:09:06] Speaker 02: Not only that, as we point out, a definition of latch exists. [00:09:10] Speaker 02: Several definitions that say a latch is a doorknob that has a key operation on one side, [00:09:15] Speaker 02: in a locking mechanism on the other. [00:09:17] Speaker 02: By definition, then our product falls in 8302 as a latch. [00:09:20] Speaker 02: Not addressed by the lower court. [00:09:22] Speaker 02: That's addressed in the Weiser case. [00:09:24] Speaker 03: So you're not contending it falls under the doorknob thing because it has a latch? [00:09:29] Speaker 03: Well, Your Honor, there's no dispute in this case that doorknobs fall. [00:09:33] Speaker 03: Wait, wait, wait, wait. [00:09:35] Speaker 03: You can't interrupt, okay? [00:09:36] Speaker 03: I apologize. [00:09:38] Speaker 03: You're not contending that it falls within 8302 [00:09:41] Speaker 03: because it's a doorknob with a lock, you're saying it falls within the definition of latch? [00:09:48] Speaker 02: What I'm saying is it's a doorknob. [00:09:50] Speaker 02: And there's no dispute that doorknobs are classified in 8302. [00:09:53] Speaker 02: You can ask Defendants' Council. [00:09:56] Speaker 02: He'll acknowledge that. [00:09:57] Speaker 02: Passage version or passage function, privacy function, there's no dispute that they fall in clearly within 8302. [00:10:04] Speaker 00: Well, but if it were a doorknob with what even you would concede, [00:10:09] Speaker 00: was a key-operated bolt, then it would not fall within 8302, correct? [00:10:17] Speaker 02: A key-operated bolt is specifically excluded. [00:10:19] Speaker 00: But if it's a doorknob with a key-operated bolt. [00:10:22] Speaker 02: No, there's no such thing, Your Honor. [00:10:23] Speaker 00: Well, but suppose I invented one tomorrow. [00:10:26] Speaker 00: OK. [00:10:26] Speaker 00: Then so that I could open and lock the door with the key and it would throw a bolt. [00:10:32] Speaker 02: Yes. [00:10:32] Speaker 00: That would not be within 8302, I take it. [00:10:35] Speaker 02: That's correct. [00:10:36] Speaker 02: And I have to apologize. [00:10:36] Speaker 02: I misspoke, Your Honor. [00:10:37] Speaker 02: There are products like that. [00:10:39] Speaker 02: In fact, our expert testified to that. [00:10:41] Speaker 01: I thought so. [00:10:42] Speaker 02: Yeah, there are types of doorknobs where the key will move the bolt. [00:10:46] Speaker 02: That's not what is at issue here. [00:10:48] Speaker 02: And you've picked up on exactly what the distinction is. [00:10:50] Speaker 03: So that would not be within 8302, then? [00:10:51] Speaker 02: No, they would not, because the key would move the bolt. [00:10:55] Speaker 03: If you look at... Well, it seems to me that we're coming back to throwing the bolt as being the key distinction here. [00:11:01] Speaker 02: Yes, and it is, Your Honor, and I accept your pun. [00:11:05] Speaker 02: I'm a little keyed up about this. [00:11:07] Speaker 02: This is... [00:11:09] Speaker 02: what the key does. [00:11:11] Speaker 02: It just moves and activates or deactivates the locking mechanism. [00:11:15] Speaker 02: If you lost the key, the doorknob still works. [00:11:22] Speaker 02: Many people have a doorknob on their door where they've lost the key. [00:11:26] Speaker 02: Do they throw away the doorknob? [00:11:28] Speaker 02: No, it still functions. [00:11:29] Speaker 02: It still latches the door. [00:11:30] Speaker 02: That's its primary design, function, and use. [00:11:33] Speaker 02: That's it. [00:11:34] Speaker 02: A deadbolt, you don't have the same luxury. [00:11:38] Speaker 02: If you lost the key for this double key deadbolt, guess what? [00:11:42] Speaker 02: Useless. [00:11:43] Speaker 02: Does not lock anything. [00:11:45] Speaker 02: That's the distinction. [00:11:47] Speaker 02: Meade tells us, your honor, from this very court, we have to differentiate with a fine point here. [00:11:53] Speaker 02: 8301 has limiting language. [00:11:58] Speaker 02: Key operated locks. [00:12:00] Speaker 02: Not all locks. [00:12:01] Speaker 02: Call our product a lock if you like. [00:12:03] Speaker 02: Locks can go in 8302 as well. [00:12:05] Speaker 02: Suppose I have a lock. [00:12:07] Speaker 00: that is an electronic-driven lock, and I have a key, and I stick the key in, I twist the key, and instead of the key itself physically turning the bolt, the key touches an electronic contact which throws a solenoid that throws the bolt. [00:12:27] Speaker 00: Is that a key-operated lock? [00:12:29] Speaker 02: Your honor, that's a very technical question. [00:12:31] Speaker 00: Well, but it's important to me, because I really am trying to get a handle on what your concept of a key operated lock is. [00:12:39] Speaker 02: Right. [00:12:39] Speaker 02: So that, unfortunately, is beyond the scope of this case. [00:12:42] Speaker 02: We don't have any electronic locks. [00:12:44] Speaker 02: Personally, I don't understand how an electronic lock works. [00:12:48] Speaker 02: If that were before the court, then the same analysis that we're talking about here, where the electronic has to throw the bolt, would be an interpretation. [00:12:57] Speaker 02: Because we recognize that there's other adjectives [00:12:59] Speaker 02: in the parenthetical that follows, or that precedes the term lock, okay? [00:13:05] Speaker 02: Combination, electronic. [00:13:07] Speaker 02: So presuming that it's an electronic lock, the electronics would have to throw the bolt, propel, withdraw the bolt, just like the key does. [00:13:16] Speaker 02: If it was a combination, it would be the same thing. [00:13:18] Speaker 02: Think about a gym lock or padlock. [00:13:20] Speaker 02: When you twist the numbers, you get to a point where it catches, and you turn the combination dial, and it actually retracts [00:13:30] Speaker 02: The bolt. [00:13:31] Speaker 00: Let me make sure that we're on the same page with respect to one question of terminology. [00:13:37] Speaker 00: In the accused, the subject product, the tongue that either comes out and goes through the strike plate or retreats is considered a bolt, correct? [00:13:48] Speaker 02: Yes, this is a deadbolt. [00:13:49] Speaker 00: Well, I know that's a deadbolt, but looking down at your product, the tongue that comes out is a bolt, right? [00:13:56] Speaker 02: A latch bolt. [00:13:56] Speaker 00: A latch bolt, but it's nonetheless a bolt. [00:13:59] Speaker 00: The way you use the term? [00:14:01] Speaker 02: Because it's not a key-operated bolt. [00:14:03] Speaker 02: It doesn't operate by key, and that's the distinction. [00:14:05] Speaker 00: It's a bolt, right? [00:14:06] Speaker 02: A latch bolt. [00:14:07] Speaker 02: It's different. [00:14:08] Speaker 02: Dead bolt, key-operated bolt. [00:14:11] Speaker 00: This is what's referenced in the U. I understand how the dead bolt works, but, well, all right. [00:14:17] Speaker 02: Go ahead. [00:14:17] Speaker 02: So I understand what you're saying. [00:14:20] Speaker 02: Yes, they do both contain the word bolt, but it's not the type of bolt that's referenced in the ENs that's excluded. [00:14:28] Speaker 02: Okay, a latch has to have a bolt because latch is put in the explanatory notes without the word bolt. [00:14:33] Speaker 02: The explanatory note says the bolt is excluded. [00:14:36] Speaker 03: It doesn't say that the lock without a bolt is excluded. [00:14:41] Speaker 02: It says key-operated bolts are excluded. [00:14:43] Speaker 02: That's the only exclusion. [00:14:44] Speaker 02: That's this product. [00:14:46] Speaker 02: Here's the fine line Mead tells us. [00:14:48] Speaker 02: We've got to differentiate with a fine point. [00:14:49] Speaker 02: That's it. [00:14:51] Speaker 03: It's not referring to the product. [00:14:52] Speaker 03: It's referring to the piece, which is a bolt. [00:14:56] Speaker 02: Your honor, with all due respect, you're not going to have a fastener without a bolt. [00:15:01] Speaker 02: These are all door fasteners. [00:15:03] Speaker 02: Some could be in 8302. [00:15:05] Speaker 02: Some could be in 8301. [00:15:07] Speaker 02: We've got to distinguish. [00:15:08] Speaker 00: What is your understanding of explanatory note D7, where it talks about knobs for doors, including those four locks or latches? [00:15:20] Speaker 02: Well, my understanding is that it's expansive to what's covered by 8302. [00:15:25] Speaker 02: in that it interprets what goes in that heading includes doorknobs. [00:15:31] Speaker 00: I need to be a little more specific with my question. [00:15:33] Speaker 00: I think what I'm looking for from you is an answer as to what the expression for locks or latches means. [00:15:41] Speaker 00: Does that mean that it can be used with a lock or that it contains a lock in the form in which it's sold? [00:15:51] Speaker 02: Well, we would consider, we interpret it to be the latter. [00:15:54] Speaker 02: We acknowledge that the language is not artfully drafted and leaves us with a bit of interpretation, but we have some guidance. [00:16:02] Speaker 02: The guidance being that there's no question that an entirety of a doorknob goes in 8302. [00:16:07] Speaker 02: So let's just look at it this way. [00:16:08] Speaker 02: Let's say it's just parts for your honors assumption here. [00:16:12] Speaker 02: Latches are also included. [00:16:14] Speaker 02: We've got some samples here that show what's in these products. [00:16:19] Speaker 02: They're mounted here so you can see the operation because we respectfully assert that the operation is critical. [00:16:24] Speaker 02: But if you look at what's in here, you've got an interior knob, you've got an exterior knob. [00:16:31] Speaker 02: 8302D7 provides for those at a minimum. [00:16:33] Speaker 02: I think we all would agree, okay? [00:16:35] Speaker 02: Now whether it includes the entirety door knob, there's an argument. [00:16:39] Speaker 02: And they disagree, we say it does. [00:16:42] Speaker 02: Latch mechanism in the middle. [00:16:44] Speaker 02: That's 8302D2. [00:16:47] Speaker 02: Put them all together, you get 8302. [00:16:50] Speaker 02: It doesn't add up to 8301. [00:16:51] Speaker 04: I'm just curious, what does it say on the packaging on the front? [00:16:54] Speaker 02: keyed entry. [00:16:56] Speaker 02: And I would reference that the lower court identifies that in some instances, we reference the term lock with respect to these goods, but it's not the only time we reference any word. [00:17:07] Speaker 02: In fact, when you look on the website itself... So, Mr. Rucker, I think we're out of time. [00:17:12] Speaker 02: We'll give you two minutes for a bottle. [00:17:14] Speaker 02: Okay. [00:17:14] Speaker 05: Thank you, Your Honor. [00:17:21] Speaker 05: Can you support? [00:17:23] Speaker 05: With me is [00:17:24] Speaker 05: Mark Matthews from Customs. [00:17:27] Speaker 05: The trial court correctly classified the imported goods under GRI 1 in totality as keyed locks. [00:17:34] Speaker 05: They looked at the actual GRI 1. [00:17:36] Speaker 05: They looked at the headings and the terms of those headings. [00:17:38] Speaker 05: And they also looked at the heading 8302. [00:17:42] Speaker 05: Heading 8301 is padlocks and locks key combination or electrically operated base metal. [00:17:50] Speaker 05: And what we have is exactly that. [00:17:53] Speaker 05: It's a keyed [00:17:54] Speaker 05: entry lock. [00:17:56] Speaker 05: The court went into the definition, and that's the common meaning of what the terms in the heading are, and the court found that a lock, using a definition that was offered by Home Depot in their brief, a device for securing a door, gate, lid, drawer, or the like, in the position when closed consisting of a bolt or system of bolts propelled and [00:18:20] Speaker 05: drawn by a mechanism operated by a key, dial, et cetera. [00:18:25] Speaker 05: So what we have is the entry lock. [00:18:28] Speaker 05: When it's locked and on the outside, it uses a key to operate the lock. [00:18:34] Speaker 05: The court said, well, let's take a look at what operate is. [00:18:37] Speaker 05: And operate means to perform a function or to produce an appropriate effect. [00:18:42] Speaker 05: So the key is having an effect. [00:18:45] Speaker 05: The key has the effect of unlocking that knob, which when you turn the knob, retracts the latch bolt. [00:18:50] Speaker 05: And that is what a lock is. [00:18:53] Speaker 00: It operates in one direction, but not the other, I take it, in the subject product. [00:18:59] Speaker 00: You can unlock, but you can't lock with the key. [00:19:02] Speaker 05: You can lock the... When the door closes, the spring automatically throws the latch bolt into the... Right, you're not using the key for purposes of locking. [00:19:12] Speaker 05: However, you can lock the knob from the outside. [00:19:16] Speaker 00: On this product, you can lock from the outside? [00:19:18] Speaker 00: Yes. [00:19:19] Speaker 05: And then you could unlock that knob too and thereby retract the latch bolt. [00:19:28] Speaker 05: So when you're outside, these are exterior doors. [00:19:32] Speaker 05: If you look at the exterior door equipment, if you look at Home Depot's website materials, they say that these are [00:19:42] Speaker 05: Locks, residential locks, exterior door locks, ANSI grade three, which ANSI grade three goes to performance and security locks. [00:19:51] Speaker 05: So this is the type you would find on an exterior door. [00:19:54] Speaker 05: If you don't have the key and the key's locked, you can't get through that door. [00:19:58] Speaker 05: You can't unlock it without that key. [00:20:00] Speaker 04: They don't ever refer to the merchandise as doorknobs? [00:20:06] Speaker 05: In certain instances, [00:20:08] Speaker 05: They likely do refer to them as doorknobs, but what they are are keyed entry locks. [00:20:13] Speaker 04: And as a package... Well, I know that's your position, that they are keyed entry locks. [00:20:19] Speaker 04: But the problem I come to is I look at these products, I think about these products, and what I see is some kind of integrated composite good. [00:20:30] Speaker 04: It's a doorknob with a lock, or it's a lock that also is a doorknob. [00:20:36] Speaker 04: We have both things going on here. [00:20:39] Speaker 04: We have two sides trying to basically negate the one piece that they prefer to ignore. [00:20:46] Speaker 04: And that's where I'm troubled. [00:20:49] Speaker 04: The focus I'd like you to talk more about is 8302 and the possibility of these goods also fitting under 8302, especially when we think about the explanatory note 8302D7. [00:21:03] Speaker 04: Let's start with what the CIT said. [00:21:05] Speaker 04: And the CIT's analysis was [00:21:10] Speaker 04: quite brief. [00:21:12] Speaker 04: Some might even say conclusory. [00:21:14] Speaker 04: So can you build up for me why my instant reaction to reading D7 would encompass doorknobs integrated with locks? [00:21:25] Speaker 04: Why is that wrong? [00:21:28] Speaker 05: Your Honor, to address your point that 8301 does encompass the entirety of this [00:21:35] Speaker 05: product. [00:21:35] Speaker 04: I'm more interested in your thoughts about 8302, specifically how to understand explanatory note 8302D7. [00:21:44] Speaker 05: Yes, Your Honor. [00:21:45] Speaker 04: And why my instinct that it covers doorknobs integrated with locks is wrong. [00:21:54] Speaker 05: Your Honor, 8302 is also an eonominee [00:21:59] Speaker 05: provision, base metal mountings, fittings, and similar articles suitable for furniture, doors, staircase, windows. [00:22:08] Speaker 05: While the court didn't delve into the meaning of these terms, we assume that the court used their common meanings. [00:22:16] Speaker 05: So Home Depot is arguing that these fit in within 8302 because they fit in within what the ENs refer to as door knobs. [00:22:29] Speaker 05: The doorknob is not the entire reference to what this article is. [00:22:35] Speaker 05: This article is more than that. [00:22:37] Speaker 05: And the court went through her camelback to look at whether something has more functionality. [00:22:44] Speaker 03: I guess the question is, looking at this explanatory note, and we talked a bit with Mr. Rucker about this, is whether the explanatory note is talking about the importation [00:22:57] Speaker 03: knobs that could be used with locks or whether it's talking about knobs that include locks. [00:23:05] Speaker 05: Well I think as a lower court below noted, D7 can recognize as a fact that knobs can be coming in or imported separately and they're not associated with what the parent product is and therefore the parent product could either just be a knob for a passage lock or passage [00:23:26] Speaker 05: latch or something else. [00:23:28] Speaker 03: But 8302 would cover a knob that's imported separately that could be used with a lock, right? [00:23:37] Speaker 05: I'm sorry, can you repeat? [00:23:40] Speaker 03: 8302, under this explanatory note, would include a doorknob that is imported separately that could be assembled after importation together with a lock. [00:23:50] Speaker 05: If it was unrecognizable upon import that it belongs with the parent item that is the lock, then yes. [00:23:56] Speaker 00: Well, I'm not sure I understand that. [00:23:59] Speaker 00: Are you reading, how do you read explanatory note D7? [00:24:04] Speaker 00: It seems to me that there's one way to read that explanatory note, which says knobs for doors, including those four locks, is to say, is to read it as knobs for doors, including those with locks. [00:24:20] Speaker 00: The preposition is for, which is a little ambiguous, as Judge Dyke's question indicates, but why isn't that fairly read to mean with? [00:24:30] Speaker 05: Well, first, the explanatory notes are guidance. [00:24:34] Speaker 00: I know. [00:24:36] Speaker 00: Let's get right to the language of that explanatory note and tell me why that isn't a sensible reading of that explanatory note. [00:24:45] Speaker 05: They also don't refer to keyed locks. [00:24:49] Speaker 05: First of all, these are knobs. [00:24:50] Speaker 03: I'm getting really confused. [00:24:51] Speaker 03: Could you just back up a moment? [00:24:54] Speaker 03: In answer to my question, that if you imported a door knob that was separate from the lock, even though it could be used together with the lock, it would be under 8302, correct? [00:25:07] Speaker 05: If it's not, upon importation, if it's not associated or if it can't be understood to belong to the lock. [00:25:17] Speaker 03: imported together with the locking mechanism, even though it could be later assembled together with the locking mechanism, it's under 8302, right? [00:25:27] Speaker 05: It would be under 8302. [00:25:28] Speaker 05: If there's nothing on that importation shows it to be assembled with a lock, it would be under 8302. [00:25:33] Speaker 03: Okay, so there are two possible interpretations of this explanatory note. [00:25:39] Speaker 03: One is that it's saying a doorknob that's imported separately from the lock [00:25:44] Speaker 03: is within 8302 even though it could later be assembled together with a lock, or it could mean that the doorknob with a lock at the time of importation is within 8302. [00:25:57] Speaker 03: Do you understand the difference between those two? [00:25:59] Speaker 03: Yes, I do. [00:26:01] Speaker 03: Okay, so which is it? [00:26:02] Speaker 03: I think that's what we've been focusing on. [00:26:05] Speaker 05: It's not that a doorknob with a keyed lock can come in under 8302. [00:26:10] Speaker 05: A doorknob with a key [00:26:14] Speaker 05: a doorknob that is part of a keyed lock is a locked system as a hose in 8301. [00:26:20] Speaker 04: I think... I'm lost as to how you want us to understand the words in EN 8302 D7. [00:26:34] Speaker 04: How do you want us to think about it? [00:26:36] Speaker 04: I understand Judge Bryson's proposed conception of the meaning of 8302. [00:26:43] Speaker 04: D7. [00:26:44] Speaker 04: I don't quite understand yours yet. [00:26:49] Speaker 04: Your Honor, the... Can you give me an example? [00:26:54] Speaker 04: Maybe give me an example instead of an abstract definition. [00:26:59] Speaker 05: We have been discussing the example of an entry coming in that's just [00:27:05] Speaker 05: a doorknob that can't be associated with its parent item. [00:27:08] Speaker 04: And that's what the lower court... But what does that mean, can't be associated with its parent item? [00:27:12] Speaker 04: What does that mean? [00:27:13] Speaker 05: If it's not known to be part of a keyed entry lock at the time of importation, that it could be just a passage latch, then it would be an 8302. [00:27:23] Speaker 04: So a simple doorknob. [00:27:24] Speaker 05: A simple doorknob, yes. [00:27:25] Speaker 04: But 8302D7 talks about for locks and latches. [00:27:31] Speaker 05: Well, it could also be a simple [00:27:35] Speaker 05: a privacy lock, which isn't a keyed lock. [00:27:38] Speaker 03: No, but it says, I think the problem that you're having trouble addressing is it says including those for locks or latches. [00:27:47] Speaker 03: So it seems as though this provision would cover some doorknobs that are used with locks. [00:27:56] Speaker 03: And I don't quite understand your suggestion that if at the time of importation it [00:28:04] Speaker 03: looks as though it's later going to be assembled together with a lock that it's not within 8302. [00:28:10] Speaker 03: Wouldn't this suggest there are only two meanings? [00:28:15] Speaker 03: One, either that if the doorknob is imported separately, it's within 8302. [00:28:21] Speaker 03: If it's imported together with a locking mechanism, it's within 8301. [00:28:26] Speaker 03: Or alternatively, that even when it includes the locking mechanism, it's within 8302. [00:28:35] Speaker 03: you don't read it that way. [00:28:36] Speaker 05: No, I don't read it that way when it includes locking mechanism. [00:28:39] Speaker 03: So what do we make out of the language including those for locks or latches? [00:28:43] Speaker 05: Well, I don't think it's any more than what the lower court stated it was. [00:28:49] Speaker 05: Because the ENs in 8302 are guidance, and it's the language of the... Well, what does the language mean? [00:28:59] Speaker 03: Why include that language? [00:29:02] Speaker 05: Well, we also know that it also includes D2. [00:29:05] Speaker 05: which says other than key operated bolts of heading 8301, which is exactly what the entry locking system is here. [00:29:13] Speaker 04: Well, you would like to believe that, but we're not so convinced. [00:29:16] Speaker 04: That's your position. [00:29:17] Speaker 04: I understand, of course, that's your position, that these are merely just bolts, and therefore they under 8301. [00:29:23] Speaker 04: But we're back to trying to figure out what this final clause in 8302D7 means. [00:29:29] Speaker 04: And that's why I'm searching for a definition from you. [00:29:34] Speaker 04: or an example from you so I can clarify in my mind what is the government think this means. [00:29:38] Speaker 04: It's here for a reason. [00:29:40] Speaker 04: We all have to answer for it. [00:29:41] Speaker 04: You have to answer for it, we have to answer for it. [00:29:44] Speaker 04: We have to have a rational explanation of what this means. [00:29:48] Speaker 04: I've heard one provided this morning and that was in the hypothetical presented by Judge Bryson. [00:29:54] Speaker 04: I'm looking for a second one. [00:29:57] Speaker 05: Your honor, the fact that [00:30:01] Speaker 05: On importation, the doorknob can come in and it can't be associated with this parent article. [00:30:06] Speaker 05: That is one understanding of it. [00:30:10] Speaker 05: The fact that it could come in with... What would an example of that be? [00:30:13] Speaker 05: If the importation is just a doorknob coming in and it has a hole, it could be associated with perhaps a passage, a privacy lock, which is not a keyed lock, it would be looked at and classified likely under 8302. [00:30:30] Speaker 05: because it can't be associated with the parent item. [00:30:32] Speaker 04: So if hypothetically the merchandise we have here, the importer broke up the package and just imported the door knob with a big hole in it. [00:30:45] Speaker 04: And then the strike plate latch assembly and all that, but without the actual locking interior locking component, then you would say, Oh, okay. [00:30:55] Speaker 04: That's what 8302 D7 is trying to cover. [00:30:58] Speaker 04: when you break up the entire set of components and you import the interior locking portion separately from all the other stuff, then that is what the authors of this were thinking about. [00:31:14] Speaker 04: Is that your position? [00:31:18] Speaker 05: Similarly, but not quite, Your Honor, because I'm not saying that... Your hypothetical seemed to show that [00:31:24] Speaker 05: eventually it is associated with a, it's separated out and will somehow come together later. [00:31:30] Speaker 05: We're saying that on importation, it's not known at all because there's no indication that it's going to be put together with a lock or whether it's not going to be, I mean, a key lock. [00:31:39] Speaker 00: And that would put it in 8302 in your view? [00:31:43] Speaker 05: When that is looked at at that point, and that would probably go into 8302. [00:31:48] Speaker 05: But once again, these are ENs. [00:31:50] Speaker 00: These are not... We understand that point. [00:31:54] Speaker 00: But we are interested in seeing what this guidance actually tells us. [00:32:00] Speaker 00: That's the reason we're focusing on this, because in this whole set of both the tariff and the ends, this is the most specific information we have before. [00:32:13] Speaker 00: So we're trying to pin down exactly what it means. [00:32:16] Speaker 00: And I'm having trouble figuring out exactly what your position is with respect to that issue. [00:32:22] Speaker 00: And to say it's [00:32:24] Speaker 00: when this says it's four locks suggests that the good, when it comes in, there is a contemplation that it will be used with a lock, but nonetheless be within 8302. [00:32:38] Speaker 00: So I'm having trouble when you say, well, if it's not associated with a lock, what does that mean? [00:32:45] Speaker 00: That's where I'm running a ground. [00:32:49] Speaker 05: Your honor, when it says [00:32:52] Speaker 05: Under the understanding that ENs are guidance. [00:32:55] Speaker 00: We do have that understanding, trust us. [00:32:58] Speaker 05: If we're saying that four locks, then it could be hypothetically for a privacy lock, which is not a keyed lock. [00:33:07] Speaker 05: So that wouldn't fit in under 8301 at all. [00:33:10] Speaker 05: But what this item is, is a keyed entry lock. [00:33:13] Speaker 00: So in effect, I should read the word, including those four privacy locks into D7. [00:33:19] Speaker 05: That could be one understanding, in addition to the fact that it possibly couldn't be associated with a key locker or otherwise when it came in. [00:33:30] Speaker 05: So the court also looked at, when it looked at 8302, it said, does it have more functionality? [00:33:40] Speaker 05: Or how is it known in the industry? [00:33:44] Speaker 05: And how is it marketed? [00:33:48] Speaker 05: the factors that are in Camelback to see if it has more functionality than what is in 8302. [00:33:54] Speaker 05: And the court looked at the American ANSI standards, 156.2, and looked at what they describe as the entry lock system. [00:34:03] Speaker 05: And the court noted that it is describing an article that is exactly what this entry lock is. [00:34:08] Speaker 00: So why shouldn't we, as in Camelback, view this as a composite and then look to what its essential character is? [00:34:16] Speaker 05: As the lower court noted, and correctly, that this locking mechanism has multiple components working together to securely lock the door. [00:34:27] Speaker 05: So as a whole, it's described in 8301. [00:34:30] Speaker 05: The complete product is described in 8301 as a lock. [00:34:36] Speaker 00: But it has many of the functions of a doorknob that doesn't have a lock, which is that it secures the door, not lock, but secures the door. [00:34:46] Speaker 00: It's a device by which you can move the door by pulling it or pushing it. [00:34:50] Speaker 00: So it has, it has doorknob features. [00:34:53] Speaker 00: It looks like a doorknob. [00:34:56] Speaker 00: Why isn't it a composite? [00:34:58] Speaker 05: It's not a composite because you can have multiple components, but if they're described in whole by one GRI, then it's under it's... I understand that, but why isn't it fair to say that this is not described in whole as a lock because it has [00:35:13] Speaker 00: all the features that a doorknob has, which is that it can pull the door open, push the door closed, and latch the door when it's in an unlocked posture. [00:35:23] Speaker 05: Because GRI-1 is an EO nominee, or 8301 is an EO nominee provision for all forms of locks. [00:35:31] Speaker 05: Now, all forms of locks can include a key entry door lock as a form of a, one form of a lock. [00:35:38] Speaker 05: There are many other forms of locks, but [00:35:41] Speaker 05: uh... it describes as a whole uh... this lock-in you nominate eighty three oh one covered the Canadian Tribunal found that this merchandise is under eighty three oh two right uh... yes your honor can you remind me why it found that it didn't fit within eighty three oh one your honor i believe the Canadian uh... tribunal [00:36:08] Speaker 05: focused on the ENs and I think that's where the error that they did. [00:36:13] Speaker 05: They didn't focus on the terms of the headings and the terms of the headings 8301. [00:36:16] Speaker 05: And to do a sort of a bottom-up analysis by looking at the ENs before looking at the headings, I think that's the fault of the Canadian Tribunal's decision. [00:36:31] Speaker 03: But they also interpreted the ENs differently than the way you did, right? [00:36:36] Speaker 03: Correct, Your Honor. [00:36:39] Speaker 03: Okay, I think we're out of time. [00:36:41] Speaker 03: Thank you, Your Honor. [00:36:43] Speaker 03: I ask that it be affirmed. [00:36:45] Speaker 03: We got that. [00:36:49] Speaker 02: Mr. Rucker, you have two minutes. [00:36:51] Speaker 02: Thank you, Your Honors. [00:36:53] Speaker 02: Well, we certainly covered a lot of ground there, so let me do my best to try to sum up in the limited time I have. [00:36:58] Speaker 02: One thing I want to correct Defendants' Council on is that 8301 is not an AO nominee provision that covers all forms of blocks. [00:37:05] Speaker 02: In fact, that's 8302. [00:37:07] Speaker 02: 8301 only covers key operated locks. [00:37:10] Speaker 02: We have to look at the entirety of the statute to get the context of what these two provisions mean. [00:37:15] Speaker 02: 8302 is an AO-nominated provision just like 8301. [00:37:19] Speaker 02: We talked a little bit about Camelback and some of the features that you might look at to determine what those... Your view is that 8302 covers locks where the key doesn't throw the bolt, right? [00:37:30] Speaker 02: Where the key doesn't operate the bolt, correct. [00:37:32] Speaker 02: Where it propels or retracts the bolt, that's correct. [00:37:34] Speaker 02: Basically all forms of locks except key operated locks go in 8302. [00:37:38] Speaker 02: That's what the language tells us. [00:37:41] Speaker 02: When we're looking at AO nominee provisions, we need to give meaning to all the terms. [00:37:45] Speaker 02: There's four terms that are critical here, your honors. [00:37:48] Speaker 02: Key, operated, lock, and let's not forget the word similar in 8302. [00:37:52] Speaker 02: Two types of door knobs undisputedly classified in 8302. [00:37:58] Speaker 02: What's similar? [00:37:59] Speaker 02: The keyed entry knob. [00:38:00] Speaker 02: Let's go through the factors real quick. [00:38:03] Speaker 02: What are the similarities? [00:38:04] Speaker 02: in this Adjusting Generous Analysis. [00:38:06] Speaker 02: Does it have an interior knob? [00:38:07] Speaker 02: Yes. [00:38:08] Speaker 02: Exterior knob? [00:38:09] Speaker 02: Yes. [00:38:09] Speaker 02: Latching mechanism? [00:38:10] Speaker 02: Yes. [00:38:11] Speaker 02: Locking function that some doorknobs, we already agree, may have? [00:38:14] Speaker 02: Yes. [00:38:15] Speaker 02: Is it used to latch or fasten the door? [00:38:17] Speaker 02: Yes. [00:38:17] Speaker 02: Does it provide something to grasp and turn to open and close a door and allow a person to go through? [00:38:22] Speaker 02: Yes. [00:38:22] Speaker 02: Those are all the functions of doorknobs in the Adjusting Generous Analysis. [00:38:26] Speaker 02: Our product has every one. [00:38:28] Speaker 02: No limiting characteristics exist. [00:38:31] Speaker 02: Our product is classifiable in 8302. [00:38:34] Speaker 02: to summarize, if you will, your honor. [00:38:37] Speaker 02: Both headings cover door fastening. [00:38:39] Speaker 02: Fastening by door hardware is accomplished by the operation of the bolt. [00:38:44] Speaker 02: That's why bolt is referenced in the ENs. [00:38:47] Speaker 02: That's why key operated references the bolt. [00:38:51] Speaker 02: Only door hardware operated by the key falls in 8301, and that is what operation? [00:39:00] Speaker 02: The bolt. [00:39:01] Speaker 02: The lower court got that definition wrong, your honors, and we respectfully assert [00:39:04] Speaker 02: that it needs to be corrected. [00:39:06] Speaker 00: Just to make sure I understand your position, if we reject your argument with respect to key operated bolt, do you agree that this is a composite? [00:39:18] Speaker 02: If you reject our interpretation, yes. [00:39:20] Speaker 00: Your interpretation of key operated bolt? [00:39:22] Speaker 02: Yes. [00:39:23] Speaker 02: Because Gallagher and Asher, we didn't talk about that yet. [00:39:26] Speaker 02: Gallagher and Asher from the Customs Court in the US says adding a keyed cylinder to a product doesn't change its character. [00:39:34] Speaker 02: So when we're talking about character, we're talking about boom, no locking cylinder, the boom, locking cylinder. [00:39:41] Speaker 02: Same product, just a distinction of a minimal nature. [00:39:44] Speaker 02: Is that significantly in excess? [00:39:46] Speaker 02: No, it's not. [00:39:47] Speaker 02: Gallagher and Asher said, hey, gas cap, locking gas cap, still a gas cap. [00:39:53] Speaker 03: Doorknob? [00:39:53] Speaker 03: Thank you, Mr. Rucker. [00:39:55] Speaker 02: If I may, Your Honor, may I just? [00:39:57] Speaker 02: Okay. [00:39:57] Speaker 02: Thank you, Your Honors. [00:39:58] Speaker 02: We respectfully request that you reverse the lower court, grant summary judgment in favor of Home Depot, barring that. [00:40:04] Speaker 02: Okay, Mr. Rucker, we're out of time. [00:40:06] Speaker 02: Thank you. [00:40:09] Speaker 02: Thank you, Your Honors. [00:40:11] Speaker 02: Thank both counsels. [00:40:12] Speaker 03: The case is submitted.