[00:00:00] Speaker 03: analog devices versus Vidal. [00:00:03] Speaker 03: Is it Vidhwan? [00:00:04] Speaker 03: Am I saying your name right? [00:00:05] Speaker 03: Mr. Vidhwan, please proceed. [00:00:07] Speaker 05: Thank you, Your Honors. [00:00:08] Speaker 05: If it may please the Court, Justice Vidhwan with Aaron Pogschiff on behalf of analog devices. [00:00:14] Speaker 05: Your Honors, this appeal focuses on a single narrow issue, whether there was enough substantial evidence to support the PTAB's finding that Kudo's reference discloses a jump-start circuit that ceases to turn on. [00:00:29] Speaker 05: And the answer to that is no. [00:00:31] Speaker 05: We recognize it's the highest gender, but the one that is met here. [00:00:34] Speaker 02: Put your pen down. [00:00:35] Speaker 03: Keep talking, but no pen. [00:00:37] Speaker 05: Go ahead. [00:00:39] Speaker 05: The P-type error here was that the FOGA associated the operation of transistor 22 as controlling the turning on or off of output transistor 23. [00:00:54] Speaker 05: And it was that misunderstanding that led the PTAB to the wrong conclusion. [00:00:57] Speaker 03: So this is a substantial evidence question, counsel. [00:01:00] Speaker 03: So what is your argument in terms of the PTAB's reliance and why, for example, the reliance on the Holberg Declaration as providing the substantial evidence, why is that wrong? [00:01:19] Speaker 05: They relied on the declaration, but the expert just got it wrong. [00:01:24] Speaker 05: So this is an anticipation issue, whether or not the CUDA reference teaches that limitation or not. [00:01:30] Speaker 05: What the expert did was that he took a piecemeal approach. [00:01:36] Speaker 05: The jump start circuit requires two limitations. [00:01:39] Speaker 05: One is turning it on the output transistor, and two, ceasing turning it on. [00:01:45] Speaker 05: So they decided to the same portion. [00:01:47] Speaker 03: Is ceasing turning it on just turning it off? [00:01:49] Speaker 03: Is that what that means? [00:01:51] Speaker 05: No, Your Honor. [00:01:51] Speaker 05: There is a distinction here. [00:01:53] Speaker 05: So ceasing turning on would be that you stop assisting the turning on of the output. [00:02:00] Speaker 04: And then you let the feedback circuit loop take over the turning on of the output transistor, right? [00:02:06] Speaker 04: That's correct, Your Honor. [00:02:07] Speaker 03: That's why it's called the jump start, because it's like jump starting a car. [00:02:10] Speaker 05: Exactly, Your Honor. [00:02:11] Speaker 03: Got it. [00:02:13] Speaker 05: So Your Honor, if I end the transistor, they focused on transistor 22, but the transistor 22 does not control the output, control the operation of output transistor 23. [00:02:24] Speaker 05: So if I may just briefly touch on how CUDAW actually operates, and this would be in reference to figure eight, which is on appendix 1193. [00:02:32] Speaker 05: Your Honors, on appendix 1193, [00:02:40] Speaker 05: The output transistor that needs to be turned on or off is 23, which is all the way up top. [00:02:45] Speaker 05: What the petitioner pointed to as the jump start circuit is all the way at the bottom. [00:02:51] Speaker 05: It's a combination of inverter 30, inverter 31, and transistor 22. [00:02:59] Speaker 05: But what actually turns on or off the transistor 23 is transistor 27, which is in the middle of that circuit. [00:03:09] Speaker 05: And that itself is controlled by the output of the inverter 30. [00:03:14] Speaker 05: So if the inverter 30, the output goes into the gate of transistor 27, which controls whether or not the output transistors 23 is turned on or off. [00:03:27] Speaker 05: Now, when the inverter 30 is low, the transistor 27 is off, and the output transistor 23 is also off. [00:03:39] Speaker 05: When the inverter 30 goes high, transistor 27 turns on and the output transistor 23 turns on. [00:03:48] Speaker 04: It turns on because node X, which is the same thing as the gate of output transistor 22, [00:03:57] Speaker 04: is tied to the voltage level at node A, which is the output of transistor 22, right? [00:04:05] Speaker 04: Correct, Your Honor. [00:04:07] Speaker 04: So it gets turned on because node A gets pulled down to zero once the jump start circuit is on. [00:04:19] Speaker 05: Once the transistor 22 turns off, then the [00:04:24] Speaker 04: When the transistor 22 is turned on, that's when node A gets pulled to zero. [00:04:32] Speaker 04: And when node A gets pulled to zero, node X gets pulled to zero through transistor 27. [00:04:39] Speaker 04: And then when node X is pulled to zero, that's how you turn on the output transistor 23. [00:04:48] Speaker 05: partially yarn so the only difference is when... We both agree on what I just said, right? [00:04:55] Speaker 05: Until the last part, Your Honor. [00:04:56] Speaker 05: The only thing is that X does not start pulling down to A until gate 27 turns on. [00:05:03] Speaker 04: So while A is going to the ground... Right, but also when output transistor 22 is turned on. [00:05:09] Speaker 04: You need transistor 22 to be turned on. [00:05:13] Speaker 05: Yes, that's correct. [00:05:14] Speaker 04: Okay. [00:05:15] Speaker 04: And then [00:05:17] Speaker 04: when transistor 22 gets turned off, then node A is no longer pulled to 0. [00:05:24] Speaker 04: That's correct, Your Honor. [00:05:25] Speaker 04: And then likewise, node X is no longer pulled to 0. [00:05:29] Speaker 05: Well, it is pulled to something between VDD and 0, correct? [00:05:32] Speaker 04: Yeah, but it's no longer at 0. [00:05:34] Speaker 04: It's going to move up to VDD, or maybe VDD divided by 2, or something like that. [00:05:40] Speaker 04: That's correct, Your Honor. [00:05:41] Speaker 04: And so in that way, the jump start circuit, or the box that's been designated as jump start circuit in 22, ceases to play a role in keeping output transistor 23 turned on, right? [00:05:59] Speaker 04: Because it's no longer controlling node X through transistor 27. [00:06:09] Speaker 05: I would agree with that, Your Honor. [00:06:10] Speaker 05: So we're not disputing whether or not it, for this appeal, whether or not it keeps it turned on. [00:06:16] Speaker 05: The only dispute for this appeal, for our part, is does it do anything to cease turning it on? [00:06:22] Speaker 05: And to be answered to that question is no, Your Honor, because [00:06:26] Speaker 05: the output of inverter 30 continues to keep the transistor 27 on. [00:06:33] Speaker 05: And therefore... Right. [00:06:35] Speaker 04: But transistor 27 is nothing more than just a bridge between nodes X and node A. And if the jump start circuit in CUDAW is no longer controlling node A, and it's the feedback circuit that's controlling node A, then that's what's feeding node X. [00:06:56] Speaker 04: and therefore controlling the output transistor gate voltage? [00:07:01] Speaker 05: So the node X, I agree with you, is to some degree being controlled by the voltage of node A. But the feedback, sorry, the jump start circuit includes all three components. [00:07:17] Speaker 05: It's not just the transistor. [00:07:19] Speaker 05: It has to be counted as the inverter 30, inverter 31, and the transistor 22. [00:07:25] Speaker 05: We're not disputing that at some point transistor 22 turns off. [00:07:29] Speaker 05: But there is some portion of that jump start circuit that continues to act in assisting to keep the output transistor 23 on. [00:07:40] Speaker 01: So your case depends on showing that transistor 27 is part of the prior jump start circuit. [00:07:53] Speaker 01: Isn't that correct? [00:07:54] Speaker 01: That is correct, Your Honor. [00:07:56] Speaker 01: Isn't there a fact-finding by the Board that Transistor 27 is not part of the Prior Art Jump Start Circuit? [00:08:06] Speaker 05: So, Your Honor, you're correct. [00:08:07] Speaker 05: PTAB took a position on the cease-turning-on limitation that Transistor 27 is not part of the Jump Start Circuit. [00:08:13] Speaker 01: How do you get over that? [00:08:15] Speaker 01: If you need 27 to be part of the Prior Art Jump Start Circuit, [00:08:21] Speaker 01: And there's a fact finding that it wasn't based on the PTAB, as I understand it, agreeing that your adversary's expert was more credible on this issue than yours. [00:08:36] Speaker 01: Then you can understand why I'm having the problem I'm having with your case. [00:08:42] Speaker 05: Sure. [00:08:43] Speaker 05: I agree. [00:08:43] Speaker 05: Thank you, Your Honor. [00:08:46] Speaker 05: Whether or not 27, it needs to be part of the jumpstart circuit. [00:08:50] Speaker 05: It's our position, it is. [00:08:51] Speaker 05: But the issue here was the P-type inconsistent position. [00:08:54] Speaker 01: In your view, it prohibits the cease limitation, right? [00:09:00] Speaker 05: Right, so there was an issue of consistency here. [00:09:03] Speaker 05: On the turning on limitation, the P-type basically said 27 is part of the jumpstart circuit. [00:09:08] Speaker 05: But when it came to cease turning on, because everybody recognized that [00:09:14] Speaker 05: 30 keeps powering on the 27. [00:09:15] Speaker 05: They said it is not part of the jump start circuit. [00:09:18] Speaker 05: They have to pick one or the other. [00:09:19] Speaker 05: They can't have it where the jump start circuit for one limitation, the transistor 27, is part of the jump start circuit. [00:09:28] Speaker 05: But for the second limitation, it is not part of it. [00:09:31] Speaker 04: Where did you argue that [00:09:34] Speaker 04: Transistor 27 in Kudo must be part of the Kudo jumpstart circuit? [00:09:41] Speaker 04: I didn't remember seeing that in your briefing to us. [00:09:44] Speaker 05: So your honor, specifically whether or not that is part of the jumpstart circuit was not argued. [00:09:52] Speaker 04: So not argued, you mean you didn't argue it? [00:09:55] Speaker 05: That's correct, your honor. [00:09:57] Speaker 05: But the issue of what we were pointing out was what they were pointing to. [00:10:00] Speaker 04: You just told Judge Cleminger you did argue it. [00:10:02] Speaker 04: So that's why I'm confused. [00:10:04] Speaker 05: No, Your Honor, sorry, I apologize. [00:10:05] Speaker 05: The issue was that whether or not the jump start of the 27 has to be part of the jump start circuit or not. [00:10:14] Speaker 05: We're saying it doesn't matter at the end of the day. [00:10:16] Speaker 05: It just has to be consistent for both limitations. [00:10:19] Speaker 04: Either it is part... So you're saying that the board considered transistor 27 in CUDO to be part of CUDO's jump start circuit for turning on the output transistor 23? [00:10:32] Speaker 05: Well, they didn't come out and say that. [00:10:36] Speaker 04: Okay then, but you just said to us that they did say that the output, that transistor 27 is part of KUDO's jump start circuit. [00:10:44] Speaker 05: Well, I think the issue is, Your Honor, that 27 is the only one that's controlling 23. [00:10:51] Speaker 04: But just so that we're on the same page. [00:10:54] Speaker 04: The board did not rely on transistor 27 in CUDO as being part of CUDO's jump start circuit, right? [00:11:00] Speaker 04: It relied on inverter 30, inverter 31, and transistor 22. [00:11:03] Speaker 04: That's it. [00:11:06] Speaker 05: That's correct, Your Honor. [00:11:08] Speaker 05: OK. [00:11:08] Speaker 05: What they pointed to in the portion of the spec, which is on in CUDO, it is column. [00:11:21] Speaker 05: It's appendix 1203. [00:11:25] Speaker 05: column eight. [00:11:27] Speaker 05: What they pointed to was, and I think it's lines 10 through 22, they describe the scenario where the control signal goes low, makes the inverter output go high, and the inverter output low. [00:11:41] Speaker 05: In that case, the 22 is turned off, which turns on the transistor 23. [00:11:47] Speaker 05: But in order for that to occur, transistor 27 would have to be on as well. [00:11:53] Speaker 03: So I'm just having a little trouble following your argument. [00:11:57] Speaker 03: Can I ask, from a clarification standpoint, do we have to conclude that the board erred as a factual matter in including transistor 27 and KUDO within the jumpstart circuit in order for you to prevail? [00:12:13] Speaker 05: No, Your Honor. [00:12:15] Speaker 03: OK, that's what this whole discussion is about, though. [00:12:17] Speaker 03: So how do you prevail if transistor 27 is not part of the jumpstart circuit? [00:12:23] Speaker 05: And, Your Honor, that would be based on the figure 10 of CUDO, which is appendix 1195, and specifically the timing chart of inverter 30, which is the second chart. [00:12:36] Speaker 05: No one disputes when the output transistor 23 turns on, which is between times three and four, when inverter 30 goes high. [00:12:47] Speaker 05: But during that sampling phase, which is the two sets of vertical lines, that's the sampling phase, [00:12:53] Speaker 05: Output 30 remains high. [00:12:55] Speaker 05: That means there was something that the jump start circuit was continuing to do in order to keep the output transistor 23 turned on. [00:13:08] Speaker 04: But by that time in the timing chart, [00:13:11] Speaker 04: Transistor 22 has been turned off, right? [00:13:14] Speaker 04: That's correct, Your Honor. [00:13:15] Speaker 04: So it's no longer participating in controlling the logic level of node A, right? [00:13:23] Speaker 04: That's correct, but there was something with... And whatever node A is, thanks to other circuitry, that's going to be what node X likewise is, too. [00:13:32] Speaker 04: Same logic level, right? [00:13:33] Speaker 05: That's correct, Your Honor. [00:13:35] Speaker 04: So it's the other circuitry that's controlling node X at that particular time in the timing chart, [00:13:40] Speaker 04: not the jumpstart circuit output coming from transistor 22. [00:13:47] Speaker 05: So the voltage is being controlled by the node A going through the node X, but the gate of node transistor 27 is controlled by still the output of inverter 30, which is part of the jumpstart circuit. [00:14:03] Speaker 03: Okay, you're almost out of all of your rebuttal time. [00:14:04] Speaker 03: Let's save some and hear from the government. [00:14:06] Speaker 05: Thank you, Your Honor. [00:14:13] Speaker 00: Maybe you would please support William Lamarca for the PTO. [00:14:17] Speaker 00: As opposing counsel pointed out, the debate is focused on this transistor 27 and whether or not that's part of the jump start circuit. [00:14:26] Speaker 03: But he just admitted that he didn't appeal that issue, right? [00:14:32] Speaker 03: How is that with the debate? [00:14:33] Speaker 03: I mean, I understand that's what we were sitting here talking about. [00:14:35] Speaker 03: I'm trying to figure out what the arguments are, and I don't have a lot of clarity around that. [00:14:40] Speaker 00: Well, based on their reply brief and based on their opening brief, their argument was that the jump start circuit in CUDO, that's the box in orange on Figure 8. [00:14:49] Speaker 00: Figure 8, yeah. [00:14:50] Speaker 00: I can take it to page 36 of our brief. [00:14:52] Speaker 00: We provided the enhanced [00:14:54] Speaker 00: color drawings to allow you to see what we're talking about. [00:14:57] Speaker 03: I mean, I think we know, like, there's transistor 22, right? [00:15:01] Speaker 00: Right, and 22 is in orange, and it's got a circular box around it, and it includes inverter 30, inverter 31, and transistor 22. [00:15:08] Speaker 00: That's the jump start circuit. [00:15:10] Speaker 00: And that's what, when 22 turns on, just like was discussed here earlier, [00:15:15] Speaker 00: You hit it right on the head. [00:15:16] Speaker 00: Note A, when 22 turns on, Note A connects to VSS and it creates a greater pull-down voltage that then when it goes through 27 to connect to Note X, Note X puts a greater pull-down voltage on 23, the output transistor, and it causes it to turn on. [00:15:31] Speaker 00: That's exactly what happens. [00:15:33] Speaker 00: That's the jump start. [00:15:34] Speaker 00: The question then is [00:15:36] Speaker 00: Does that cease turning on at some point? [00:15:38] Speaker 00: And yes, it does, because then when 22 turns off, it is no longer providing that extra pull, that extra voltage pull anymore, which means it has ceased in its jumpstart capability. [00:15:48] Speaker 00: It's true that node 30 continues to output a logic signal to 27 to keep it open, but that's no longer a jumpstart at that point. [00:15:57] Speaker 00: There's no jumping current. [00:15:58] Speaker 03: Well, because 22 is no longer involved, and 27's not part of the jumpstart circuit. [00:16:02] Speaker 03: So it's a story, right? [00:16:04] Speaker 00: And that's our position. [00:16:05] Speaker 00: And that's the board's position, and that's the expert position that the board relied on. [00:16:09] Speaker 00: And that's the fact finding that they made. [00:16:11] Speaker 00: And in our view, that's a factual question. [00:16:14] Speaker 02: I don't think anybody disputed that, right? [00:16:17] Speaker 02: Do you think anyone is questioning that this is a fact? [00:16:19] Speaker 00: All I'm saying is you say it doesn't cease to turn on, and it does cease to turn on. [00:16:24] Speaker 01: Isn't the only way that a panel can undermine that is to get transistor 27 into the jump start circuit? [00:16:32] Speaker 01: Yeah, his argument... I thought that's what he said to me when I first asked him, because I had understood... I'm not an electrical engineer, but I understood the significance of whether transistor 27 is either in or out for his argument. [00:16:49] Speaker 00: Right. [00:16:50] Speaker 00: And the point is the board wasn't inconsistent, which is what his point was. [00:16:54] Speaker 00: His argument was, I believe, [00:16:56] Speaker 00: that the board said it was part of it. [00:16:57] Speaker 00: It never said it was part of it. [00:16:58] Speaker 00: In fact, the board expressly said, Dr. Holberg, the expert, analyzed this circuit and said, transistor 27 is an additional transistor that's part of the feedback loop, but it's not part of the jump start circuit. [00:17:13] Speaker 02: And that board... MN 218. [00:17:15] Speaker 00: Exactly. [00:17:16] Speaker 00: And the board agreed with the expert, Dr. Holberg, and said, we find that to be a persuasive argument. [00:17:23] Speaker 00: And they made that fact finding. [00:17:24] Speaker 00: And that's what's in the record. [00:17:25] Speaker 00: didn't didn't didn't did the board also deal with the alleged inconsistency argument no because i don't believe i mean the at the time of the board i don't believe that was being that argument was being made what was happening to the board is board is saying look transistor twenty seven doesn't belong it's not part of the jumpstart it's an extraneous transistor that's outside of the jumpstart circuit is part of the feedback loop and it performs a function it's a connector it links together uh... [00:17:54] Speaker 00: voltages to the gate node X. It does all of that, but it's not part of the jump start. [00:18:00] Speaker 00: In fact, when the jump start is turned off, as we just explained, and Judge Shen, I believe, recognized this earlier, when transistor 22 is turned off, you are no longer getting the benefit of the jump start. [00:18:12] Speaker 01: Judge Shen described transistor 27 as a bridge between node A and node Z. And I think that's an accurate way to describe it. [00:18:19] Speaker 00: I mean, I've [00:18:20] Speaker 00: We've called it a connector, a link, a bridge. [00:18:23] Speaker 00: It's essentially just allowing what's coming from node A to connect to node X. It's all it's doing. [00:18:28] Speaker 00: But it has nothing to do really [00:18:30] Speaker 00: with the actual additional voltage pull that's provided by the jump start transistor 22. [00:18:35] Speaker 01: What function does it provide at all? [00:18:38] Speaker 01: Teach me as an electrical engineer. [00:18:40] Speaker 01: If you didn't have 27. [00:18:43] Speaker 00: It does provide a bridge. [00:18:45] Speaker 00: It links it to node X is what it does. [00:18:47] Speaker 00: Another way to have done this. [00:18:48] Speaker 01: But you wouldn't need node X. Node A would go straight to 23. [00:18:52] Speaker 00: I mean that might be another way to configure the circuit. [00:18:55] Speaker 00: I think in the 250 patent the way their jump start circuit works is it goes directly to node X without a intermediate connector or bridge. [00:19:03] Speaker 01: Here you have this extra bridge in between. [00:19:10] Speaker 01: the node A to go to node X? [00:19:13] Speaker 00: Well, I think it does because when, yeah, node A to node X, correct, but remember, keep in mind, node A, when it links up to VSS through 22, when it's during the jump start, in the limited period, that moment period, [00:19:27] Speaker 00: When it's doing that, it's bringing an extra voltage pull, extra negative voltage in a sense, to cause more pull to node A, which goes through 27 to node X. But then when the jump start is turned off, when it ceases turning on, or it's disengaged, node A is still there. [00:19:43] Speaker 00: Except node A now has a slightly higher voltage, so it's a lesser voltage pull. [00:19:48] Speaker 00: But it continues to operate. [00:19:49] Speaker 01: I'm looking at figure eight and just trying to understand the science here. [00:19:52] Speaker 01: What happens when the juice leaves 27 and goes to 29? [00:19:58] Speaker 00: I think that, I'm not for sure, I can't say for sure, Your Honor, but there's another phase of this circuit called the charging phase. [00:20:05] Speaker 00: What we're talking about now is the sampling phase. [00:20:07] Speaker 00: Remember, let's step back for one second. [00:20:10] Speaker 00: What is this thing? [00:20:11] Speaker 00: It's an analog to digital converter. [00:20:12] Speaker 00: It's taking analog signals and it's digitizing them. [00:20:15] Speaker 00: It's sampling the signals. [00:20:17] Speaker 00: So we're talking about the sampling phase when it's doing the sampling. [00:20:20] Speaker 03: OK, so I'm just going to jump in because you're just sort of way beyond the record in this case at this point. [00:20:25] Speaker 03: And I mean, I understand why. [00:20:27] Speaker 03: you know just come here is curious about what functions transistor twenty seven might perform in the circuit addition to or beyond it's just uh... jumpstart possibility and it does but that's not part of this record for us and we don't have to go down that road. [00:20:39] Speaker 03: I'm just trying to answer your questions right now. [00:20:40] Speaker 03: I'm just trying to answer your questions right now. [00:20:41] Speaker 03: I'm just trying to answer your questions right now. [00:20:42] Speaker 03: I'm just trying to answer your questions right now. [00:20:43] Speaker 00: I'm just trying to answer your questions right now. [00:20:44] Speaker 00: I'm just trying to answer your questions right now. [00:20:45] Speaker 01: I'm just trying to answer your questions right now. [00:20:46] Speaker 01: I'm just trying to answer your questions right now. [00:20:47] Speaker 00: I'm just trying to answer your questions right now. [00:20:49] Speaker 00: I'm just trying to answer your questions right now. [00:20:50] Speaker 00: I'm just trying to answer your questions right now. [00:20:51] Speaker 00: I'm just trying to answer your questions right now. [00:20:52] Speaker 00: I'm just trying to answer your questions right now. [00:20:53] Speaker 00: I'm just trying to answer your questions right now. [00:20:54] Speaker 00: I'm just trying to answer your questions right now. [00:20:55] Speaker 00: I'm just trying to [00:20:56] Speaker 00: All we're concerned with here is, is there a jumpstart circuit that it helps jumpstart output transistor 23, and is there a time period when it no longer jumpstarts, when it ceases turning on? [00:21:08] Speaker 00: And the answers to all those questions are yes. [00:21:10] Speaker 00: And therefore, KUDO is an anticipatory reference, Your Honor. [00:21:14] Speaker 00: That's the bottom line. [00:21:15] Speaker 04: Can I just ask a question? [00:21:15] Speaker 04: This is what I think the appellants are basically arguing. [00:21:20] Speaker 04: And they're arguing that the so-called jump start circuit in KUDO still necessarily has a role to play in keeping output transistor 23 on during the entire time it needs to be on. [00:21:34] Speaker 04: And so therefore, the jump start circuit at no point during that time ceases to turn on output transistor 23. [00:21:43] Speaker 04: And JumpStart Circuit of CUDA was doing that by continually feeding an input to the gate of transistor 27. [00:21:55] Speaker 04: And if you don't have that input into the gate of transistor 27 through the entire time, [00:22:03] Speaker 04: then you won't ever have output transistor 23 turned on. [00:22:09] Speaker 04: And so therefore, that is why CUDO's so-called jump start circuit does not ever cease to turn on output transistor 23. [00:22:19] Speaker 04: That's their argument. [00:22:21] Speaker 04: I think that is their argument, Your Honor. [00:22:24] Speaker 04: Because let's get an answer on that. [00:22:26] Speaker 00: Yeah, I think that's a more, I mean, that's an articulate way of arguing what they're saying. [00:22:30] Speaker 00: And it's true. [00:22:31] Speaker 00: We're not disagreeing, the board's not disagreeing, that output inverter 30 continues to supply a logic code, either a high or a low value, to transistor 27 to keep it on during the sampling phase, even after the jump start feature has turned off. [00:22:47] Speaker 00: In other words, transistor 22 has turned off, there's no longer any jump starting. [00:22:52] Speaker 00: In other words, the jump start has ceased to turn on, but circuitry, that's part of the package, [00:22:59] Speaker 00: Inverter 30 continues to provide a logic code to 27 to keep 27 open wide. [00:23:05] Speaker 00: So the circuit can just keep operating in its normal feedback loop without the jump start. [00:23:10] Speaker 00: And it does do that. [00:23:11] Speaker 00: But in our view, because 27 is not part of the jump start circuit, [00:23:17] Speaker 00: Nevertheless, the jump start aspect of, which is really 22, is transistor 22. [00:23:22] Speaker 00: It's no longer providing extra voltage pool. [00:23:25] Speaker 00: There's no longer any jump starting. [00:23:27] Speaker 00: In fact, you could have had that logic converter 30 somewhere else. [00:23:30] Speaker 00: It didn't even have to be there. [00:23:31] Speaker 00: It could have been anywhere. [00:23:33] Speaker 00: All you really need is a signal to tell 27, just stay open during the sampling phase. [00:23:37] Speaker 03: Could have been anywhere, but it is defined as part of the jump start circuit. [00:23:41] Speaker 00: Correct. [00:23:41] Speaker 03: So if it is a necessary component to feed voltage 27 or signal, then is that still part of the jump start circuit, even if it's not transistor 22, is it nonetheless 30 [00:23:57] Speaker 03: continuing to be involved in the operation such that it's not ceasing to turn off. [00:24:02] Speaker 00: Well, keep in mind what the claim says, your honor. [00:24:04] Speaker 00: Let's go back to the claim, if I've got that on the inside cover of the brief. [00:24:07] Speaker 00: Element D of the claim says a jump start circuit to turn on the output transistor and the jump start circuit to cease turning on the output transistor. [00:24:16] Speaker 00: So what's happening? [00:24:17] Speaker 00: When 22 goes off, [00:24:19] Speaker 00: the jumpstart circuit ceases to help turn on out the front. [00:24:23] Speaker 03: It just allows it to keep going, but it's not turning it on. [00:24:26] Speaker 00: It's not helping it anymore. [00:24:27] Speaker 00: It's not jumping it. [00:24:28] Speaker 00: Therefore, even if you're right that inverter 30 is theoretically part of the jumpstart circuit, nevertheless, it's not participating. [00:24:36] Speaker 03: What do you mean even if I'm right? [00:24:37] Speaker 03: You put a box around it, you call it the jumpstart circuit. [00:24:40] Speaker 03: How could I be wrong? [00:24:41] Speaker 00: It's two bucks. [00:24:42] Speaker 00: But my point is, it doesn't have a role in the jumping starting of Output Transfusion 23. [00:24:48] Speaker 00: That's what I'm trying to say, Your Honor. [00:24:52] Speaker 00: If there's no further questions, I'll be happy to sit down. [00:24:55] Speaker 01: Thank you for the education. [00:25:00] Speaker 05: Your Honor, I just want to make one point regarding the operation of [00:25:07] Speaker 05: Transistor 27, absent transistors 27, turning it on or off, output transistor 23 will not turn on or turn off. [00:25:17] Speaker 05: It sees turning off. [00:25:18] Speaker 05: And it is only the output of inverter 30 that continues to feed the gate of transistor 27 and thereby keeping the output transistor 23 turned on. [00:25:32] Speaker 05: So while [00:25:34] Speaker 05: The PTAB focused on just one component that's disconnected. [00:25:38] Speaker 05: There is at least one other component off the jump start circuit that continues to act in assisting, keeping the error output true. [00:25:46] Speaker 04: Just the problem we face is that [00:25:49] Speaker 04: We have this very deferential standard of review here on this fact-finding. [00:25:53] Speaker 04: And not only do you have to convince us that your reading of the output of inverter theory from the transistor 27 is a reasonable way to think about how the jump-start circuit is operating. [00:26:08] Speaker 04: You also have to show why it's unreasonable for the board to have focused on the output of transistor 22 as being the relevant part of how to think about how the jump start circuit is behaving and operating during this sampling process. [00:26:26] Speaker 04: And so that's your challenge. [00:26:31] Speaker 05: I'm out of time. [00:26:31] Speaker 05: May I answer that question? [00:26:34] Speaker 05: It's up to her. [00:26:35] Speaker 05: So I do recognize, Your Honor, the standard is high and the challenge is high. [00:26:40] Speaker 05: But the issue here is that whether or not CUDO, because this is an anticipatory reference, whether it's there or not. [00:26:48] Speaker 05: And it's our position that CUDO does not have that. [00:26:53] Speaker 05: But I recognize it's a high standard. [00:26:55] Speaker 05: It's our view that CUDA does not teach it because it doesn't anticipate ceasing turning on. [00:27:01] Speaker 05: Thank you. [00:27:03] Speaker 03: I thank both counsel. [00:27:04] Speaker 03: This case is taken under submission.