[00:00:01] Speaker 01:
My next case this morning is number 23-1107, broadbanditv.com.

[00:00:52] Speaker 01:
Okay, Mr. Lampkin.

[00:01:05] Speaker 00:
Thank you, may it please the court.

[00:01:07] Speaker 00:
I'd like to focus on the 026 patent family, which addresses problems for TV providers and for consumers from the exponential growth of VOD content and listings.

[00:01:18] Speaker 00:
It does that, addresses it using a very specific structure.

[00:01:21] Speaker 00:
a templatized electronic display comprising at least three layers, each of which has distinct characteristics and functions.

[00:01:29] Speaker 00:
If the court would turn to the appendix page 68, column 22, line 30, that is claim one, that templatized display needs at least three things.

[00:01:39] Speaker 00:
A, a first layer, which has a thematic or background screen.

[00:01:44] Speaker 00:
has a second layer with reserved areas.

[00:01:48] Speaker 00:
This ensures that the titles, the navigation tools, the categories are always in the same place.

[00:01:55] Speaker 00:
And then there's a third layer that draws metadata and images as the claims require that are uploaded by the film studios or the content providers themselves who are numerous, understand their own content, have a reason to promote it, and overlays that on top of the reserved areas.

[00:02:13] Speaker 00:
There's a picture of it on page 15 of our brief, a physical picture of how it looks.

[00:02:17] Speaker 00:
This is not an abstract idea.

[00:02:19] Speaker 00:
It's a particularized structure, not at issue in prior cases, and a highly transformative one for the technology, for electronic program practice, which is something technological, especially if one recalls how we used to have to navigate those listings.

[00:02:34] Speaker 02:
And that structure... Would you agree that

[00:02:37] Speaker 02:
that what we have here is essentially the user that's sitting there with a remote is handed, this is by analogy, is handed a set of cards, index cards, and they're numbered, and the user gets to put them in whatever order they want.

[00:03:04] Speaker 00:
No, Your Honor, I don't think that's at all.

[00:03:06] Speaker 02:
I think that for the 026 patent, this patent... Isn't this invention all about just arranging, again, these levels you're talking about in hierarchical level, but to put them in a certain form?

[00:03:21] Speaker 02:
It's kind of like color-coding index cards, or putting them in chronological order, or arranging them by calendar, all January cards here go.

[00:03:34] Speaker 00:
if that's abstract isn't it if it's simply said use hierarchical displays if it's simply said use categories.

[00:03:41] Speaker 02:
What hierarchical displays?

[00:03:42] Speaker 02:
Pardon?

[00:03:43] Speaker 02:
What is that?

[00:03:44] Speaker 02:
I mean you've got to tell me that it's one is over another and there's some sort of sense as to that order but isn't that simply what I was pointing out?

[00:03:56] Speaker 02:
It's just putting the cards into a certain order.

[00:03:59] Speaker 02:
How can that be invented?

[00:04:01] Speaker 00:
No, Your Honor, I think when we're talking about the display, the single image on the screen and the image you're looking at on the screen has three layers, background layer, reserve layers, and then overlay of the metadata and the images, which are provided not by the TV provider, those are uploaded by the content providers, by the movie studios, so that the TV providers don't have to do anymore.

[00:04:22] Speaker 00:
When you're talking about that image, that physical view that you have,

[00:04:25] Speaker 00:
That's not about hierarchy.

[00:04:27] Speaker 02:
That's not about anything like that.

[00:04:31] Speaker 02:
It's the image that you see.

[00:04:41] Speaker 02:
ABC and it takes you to daily schedule, 9 o'clock, 10 o'clock, and then you're here at 10 o'clock, and then that's what it's talking about.

[00:04:52] Speaker 00:
Well, if that were the only thing, it simply said use hierarchies and let them drill up and drill down through hierarchies or move laterally through hierarchies.

[00:05:00] Speaker 02:
That's what the claims are directed to though, hierarchies.

[00:05:02] Speaker 00:
Now, Your Honor, half of the claim, half of the claim, if you take a look where it starts about, it talks about the display, it has an A, B, and C, and it's talking about

[00:05:11] Speaker 00:
a particular specific type of display with distinct characteristics for the different layers.

[00:05:17] Speaker 00:
And that's actually a critical component of this invention.

[00:05:20] Speaker 00:
A critical thing that relieves the TV providers of manually entering themselves

[00:05:24] Speaker 00:
all the information about the video, and ensures that you can do that hierarchical drill down, drill up, if that's what the consumer wants.

[00:05:32] Speaker 00:
It allows the movie theaters, excuse me, movie producers, the studios, to use an internet system to just enter their information, enter the metadata, their images, everything.

[00:05:44] Speaker 00:
It is then pulled into this three-layer template.

[00:05:47] Speaker 01:
So what's the significance of the three layers?

[00:05:50] Speaker 00:
So the three layers are because the first layer, the background, means that you can have differentiation.

[00:05:56] Speaker 00:
So HBO doesn't look like Netflix, doesn't look like PBS.

[00:06:01] Speaker 01:
What's the difference between three layers and one layer with the same information?

[00:06:05] Speaker 00:
Well, the difference between three layers and one layer?

[00:06:07] Speaker 00:
The difference between three layers and one layer is that the way these are rendered,

[00:06:13] Speaker 00:
and the way it's produced is there's one in the background that is sort of a constant.

[00:06:16] Speaker 00:
You know that that's what's there.

[00:06:17] Speaker 00:
It's put there.

[00:06:18] Speaker 00:
The second layer is the reserved areas, and then you superimpose on top of those

[00:06:23] Speaker 00:
information to fill in the different places.

[00:06:26] Speaker 00:
And that second layer ensures that everything is in its correct place.

[00:06:30] Speaker 00:
It's all the categories are the same so that you want to drill up and drill down, which may be an abstract idea, as you point out, standing alone.

[00:06:36] Speaker 00:
The consumer is able to do that because the buttons which allow you to move are always in the same place.

[00:06:41] Speaker 02:
That's the focus of the claim.

[00:06:45] Speaker 02:
I'm sorry?

[00:06:46] Speaker 02:
The focus of the claim is to put information in hierarchical levels.

[00:06:50] Speaker 02:
No, Your Honor, I think that is not... Okay, then the focus of the claim is to receive all of your information and then to put them in whatever manner that the user wants.

[00:07:00] Speaker 00:
I don't think you can read the entirety of the claim and it is error to dismiss and pick out different pieces and say that's the focus of the claim.

[00:07:07] Speaker 00:
Because the claim is an end-to-end way of getting your program guide put together.

[00:07:12] Speaker 00:
And the claim has... Then let me ask you, what's the claim in advance?

[00:07:16] Speaker 00:
So the claim to advance is first this three-layer display, highly specific, highly particularized.

[00:07:25] Speaker 00:
It's not general, it's not abstract.

[00:07:27] Speaker 00:
And that enables you to do two things that are absolutely critical.

[00:07:31] Speaker 00:
One is because you have this templatized display, the movie theater, excuse me, the movie producers, the content providers, all these people out on the internet, they enter their information and it shows up.

[00:07:43] Speaker 00:
in a routine, ordinary fashion, where this all has a consistent look and feel.

[00:07:47] Speaker 00:
So it means that the TV provider, the cable company, doesn't have to go through the effort of entering millions and millions of titles.

[00:07:54] Speaker 03:
What does the patent tell us about how that's done?

[00:07:57] Speaker 03:
Where do we see that?

[00:07:59] Speaker 03:
How that's entered?

[00:08:00] Speaker 03:
Yeah, for instance, how the content provider is taking that burden off of the

[00:08:07] Speaker 03:
So the patent has that.

[00:08:18] Speaker 00:
In the specification, if you look at Appendix 66, Column 18, lines 21 to 24.

[00:08:27] Speaker 00:
Yes.

[00:08:28] Speaker 00:
It's talking about one of the savings.

[00:08:31] Speaker 00:
It's talking about the benefit.

[00:08:32] Speaker 03:
And it simply – and it says – I understand the benefit, but are you telling me in three lines of this patent it tells the content providers how to do it?

[00:08:41] Speaker 00:
It also has – let's see.

[00:08:45] Speaker 00:
That's one thing, which is explaining the benefit.

[00:08:48] Speaker 00:
And then it says – what page are we looking at?

[00:08:53] Speaker 00:
We're looking at – that was page 66.

[00:08:56] Speaker 00:
Column 18, lines 21 to 24, and that was explaining the benefit of it, as opposed to how they do, how it's done.

[00:09:02] Speaker 00:
But I think it talks about on page column 15, it'd be starting around line 30.

[00:09:10] Speaker 00:
Page 65, yes, column 15, line 30.

[00:09:13] Speaker 00:
It says, contents uploaded by an author to the web-based content management system, which processes the content.

[00:09:19] Speaker 00:
And it talks about how it's presented after that.

[00:09:25] Speaker 00:
Let's see.

[00:09:26] Speaker 03:
Did the district clerk's analysis find that one of the problems with your patent was that it was all very functional and claiming results and just high level in general and not telling one how to do these things?

[00:09:41] Speaker 00:
Yeah, the district court was concerned about the generality, but the district court overlooked one thing that was highly specific and highly credible.

[00:09:48] Speaker 00:
and that is that specifics of a templatized display.

[00:09:51] Speaker 00:
If you look at the district's analysis of the templatized display, page 32 to 34 of the court's opinion, it basically says, well, that's just a generic environment.

[00:09:59] Speaker 00:
But the templatized display is quite concrete about how it's done.

[00:10:03] Speaker 00:
Three distinct layers.

[00:10:04] Speaker 00:
That is a picture on page 15.

[00:10:06] Speaker 00:
That is not an abstract idea.

[00:10:08] Speaker 00:
That's quite concrete.

[00:10:09] Speaker 00:
Now, the specifics of a web-based system that is uploaded, that it uses the same categories as the categories in the display, things like that are specified, but there's nothing else about the web-based system or specifics about it.

[00:10:23] Speaker 00:
But the fact that you can upload by categories, and it uses the same categories to put it into the display,

[00:10:29] Speaker 00:
There's a specific concrete three-layer display.

[00:10:33] Speaker 01:
Where does this specification talk about the advantages of the three levels of templates?

[00:10:40] Speaker 00:
If you look at page 61, I think it was page 66 again.

[00:10:50] Speaker 00:
It talks about the title or assignment of the publisher.

[00:10:54] Speaker 00:
It goes up into the hierarchical display.

[00:10:58] Speaker 03:
So we have 66 or 61?

[00:10:59] Speaker 00:
66, column 18.

[00:11:02] Speaker 00:
It says, with this message, vast mass members of content publishers anywhere on the internet can upload their programs with a minimum of conversion and handling steps by the digital television provider.

[00:11:11] Speaker 03:
Does it tie that into the specific concrete three window, three display, three barriers and display, excuse me?

[00:11:20] Speaker 00:
I'm not right there, although the next sentence does, because then it says home TV viewers.

[00:11:25] Speaker 00:
Which sentence?

[00:11:26] Speaker 00:
Where's the next sentence?

[00:11:27] Speaker 00:
It's line 24.

[00:11:28] Speaker 00:
Column 18.

[00:11:29] Speaker 00:
Column 18.

[00:11:30] Speaker 00:
Home TV viewers can then easily use the EPG Hierarchical Navigation Scheme to find something of interest for viewing.

[00:11:35] Speaker 00:
I see that.

[00:11:35] Speaker 01:
It's offering me the advantages of having three templates and how that is an improvement.

[00:11:41] Speaker 00:
Well, I think the district court also said that it allows people to navigate more easily, and it cuts out people scrolling through many of them.

[00:11:48] Speaker 01:
So is the answer, there's nothing in the specification that talks about the advantages of a three-level template?

[00:11:54] Speaker 00:
I don't think the specification specifically says that the three-level template in particular provides advantages, but it is, in the claims, it is a particular... It kind of does.

[00:12:04] Speaker 02:
Look at, again, column 18, line 24.

[00:12:09] Speaker 02:
after you have all this information that says, home TV viewers can then easily use the hierarchical navigation scheme to find something of interest for viewing.

[00:12:21] Speaker 02:
That's what this is directed to.

[00:12:25] Speaker 02:
All it is is directed to providing information to a user so the user can decide what program they're going to watch.

[00:12:33] Speaker 00:
It's an end-to-end.

[00:12:34] Speaker 00:
from the movie studios who use the web-based system to upload it, ensures that it comes up in a templatized fashion, so it's always the same information in the same place, the same navigation buttons in the same place for the user, and then the user can then navigate, drill down, drill up, as you point out.

[00:12:51] Speaker 00:
But those end-to-end features, uploaded by the movie studios, that's a required piece of it.

[00:12:58] Speaker 00:
into the three-layer templatized display.

[00:13:01] Speaker 00:
That's a required piece of it.

[00:13:02] Speaker 00:
And then it has the ability for people to navigate to where they want.

[00:13:05] Speaker 00:
It cuts the TV provider out of this process of having to add it, but it still produces a display that of uniform look and feel.

[00:13:13] Speaker 00:
that people can then navigate up and down and find the pieces that they want.

[00:13:17] Speaker 00:
And the templates then have another specific requirement, which is down at the bottom of that claim on page 66, which says that you're going to have to have a different template for a different level of a hierarchy so that the navigation is easier and people can see the differences.

[00:13:33] Speaker 00:
So level one, there's at least two different levels of hierarchy.

[00:13:36] Speaker 00:
And in those two levels of hierarchy, you're going to have to have at least two different displays.

[00:13:40] Speaker 00:
And if you compare what existed before

[00:13:43] Speaker 00:
For example, the right-hand image on page 19 of the appendix, which are from 2000, and you compare what Amazon and Delight have today, that templatized display means you have reams and volumes of information automatically pulled up into your display.

[00:14:00] Speaker 00:
It can be changed any moment because they change some information.

[00:14:03] Speaker 00:
It gets pulled up on the fly and into the template.

[00:14:05] Speaker 00:
So what this is doing is correlating it to viewer preferences, right?

[00:14:08] Speaker 00:
Well, that's not the 026 patent.

[00:14:11] Speaker 00:
That's the 825 patent, which is the one where it changes the order in which categories are presented based on the consumption habits.

[00:14:22] Speaker 00:
This is the 026 patent, which is simply about the display itself, the fact that you have a templatized display.

[00:14:29] Speaker 00:
The templatized display pulls up

[00:14:32] Speaker 00:
the information from different places.

[00:14:33] Speaker 00:
It's no really different than, for example, Core Wireless, which had a summary app scheme that pulled information from different apps and presented them in a particular way.

[00:14:43] Speaker 00:
No different than Data Engine.

[00:14:46] Speaker 00:
In Data Engine, it was the tab which allows you to navigate vast volumes of spreadsheets.

[00:14:52] Speaker 00:
This is the same thing but for electronic programming displays.

[00:14:57] Speaker 00:
Enormous volumes of information

[00:14:59] Speaker 00:
but that information is pulled up automatically by those who have the information and can enter it most easily, taking the TV provider out of it, presented in a templatized display, and that display maintains a consistent look and feel with all the buttons in the right places.

[00:15:13] Speaker 02:
So assuming we affirm abstract, go to step two and what happens there?

[00:15:20] Speaker 00:
Yeah, and I think if it's directed to an abstract idea, there's still an inventive concept there.

[00:15:25] Speaker 00:
And I think that inventive concept is, again, that same structured idea of having this three-layer display coupled with a web-based management system where the information comes up off the web, entered by the movie theaters, not by the TV providers.

[00:15:40] Speaker 00:
And then that same templatized display has those grow up and draw down features so that the navigation, no matter where that information came from, the navigation for the consumer is exactly the same

[00:15:50] Speaker 00:
They can move up and down and sideways.

[00:15:52] Speaker 00:
It always looks the same.

[00:15:53] Speaker 01:
Okay, but that's the advantages of the three-level templates, as far as I can tell, as lawyer argument.

[00:16:00] Speaker 01:
I don't see that in the specification.

[00:16:02] Speaker 00:
Well, Your Honor, I think the advantages, given that the claim itself

[00:16:06] Speaker 00:
has three layers, and it has a background layer, which doesn't matter, which means you can distinguish ABC from NBC, Hulu from PBS.

[00:16:17] Speaker 00:
The next layer makes sure that you have everything in the same place.

[00:16:22] Speaker 00:
And then the final layer is the overlay.

[00:16:23] Speaker 00:
It's the stuff that you pull up.

[00:16:25] Speaker 00:
And so I think that those are the distinct advantages are apparent because there are three different pieces that are important to this.

[00:16:31] Speaker 00:
And you need those three pieces to ensure that you have a consistent display so people can have that consistent navigation field up, up, and down.

[00:16:39] Speaker 00:
I see that one.

[00:16:40] Speaker 01:
We'll give you two minutes.

[00:16:42] Speaker 01:
Thank you, Your Honor.

[00:16:43] Speaker 01:
Mr. Haddon.

[00:16:51] Speaker 04:
Let me please the court.

[00:16:53] Speaker 04:
Let me start by addressing this template argument.

[00:16:58] Speaker 04:
The first thing to note is that the templates are just a way to construct the interface.

[00:17:05] Speaker 04:
They're not part of the interface.

[00:17:07] Speaker 04:
They're just the tools that you use to create it.

[00:17:12] Speaker 04:
It's like transparencies that you can stack on a projector, and the result is a screen.

[00:17:19] Speaker 04:
And that's shown in Figure 1C.

[00:17:21] Speaker 04:
If you look at Figure 1C, what it shows as the end result is nothing but a generic looking web page.

[00:17:29] Speaker 04:
It has a picture of the car.

[00:17:31] Speaker 04:
It has a couple of buttons.

[00:17:33] Speaker 04:
That is what is shown on the screen as the result of this process.

[00:17:38] Speaker 04:
So these templates, and it is acknowledged both by BBI TV's counsel at Summary Judgment, by Mr. Diaz, the inventor, and by BBI TV's expert, Mr. Smith, that templates were a known entity used to create screen displays, and they were not invented by Mr. Diaz.

[00:18:00] Speaker 04:
And we all know that, right?

[00:18:02] Speaker 04:
PowerPoint, you can use templates

[00:18:04] Speaker 04:
even layered templates to create PowerPoint displays, and we've been doing that for the last 30 years.

[00:18:11] Speaker 04:
So if we want to look at whether or not these patents fit under core wireless or data engine, we have to look at the actual features of the user interface that are claimed in the claim.

[00:18:25] Speaker 04:
Those cases require a specific structure in the interface itself

[00:18:31] Speaker 04:
that improves the computer interface and that solves a problem in the prior.

[00:18:37] Speaker 04:
Now, if we look at the 825 pattern, the only reference to anything in the interface in that claim one is in the last element.

[00:18:50] Speaker 04:
And it says, reordering a current display listing of the category names for categories of video on demand programs.

[00:18:59] Speaker 04:
So the only feature of an interface in that claim is that the categories get reordered.

[00:19:07] Speaker 04:
And that's shown in Figure 5 of the patent.

[00:19:10] Speaker 04:
It has 501, which shows a generic listing of categories, and then 503,

[00:19:17] Speaker 04:
shows them reordered for the user.

[00:19:20] Speaker 03:
Let me go back to the 026.

[00:19:22] Speaker 03:
They say that that specific structure of the three-layer template is what enables the TV provider as opposed to the cable operator to upload the information, and that's a great improvement.

[00:19:34] Speaker 03:
What's your response to that?

[00:19:36] Speaker 04:
My response is that those are completely separate things.

[00:19:39] Speaker 04:
The claim talks about the categorization being done by the TV provider.

[00:19:47] Speaker 04:
In this case, Disney will decide that the movie should be listed as a comedy versus a drama.

[00:19:55] Speaker 04:
The alternative is Comcast decides whether the movie should be listed as a comedy or a drama.

[00:20:01] Speaker 04:
But those are completely unrelated to whether or not you use templates or not to generate the display.

[00:20:07] Speaker 04:
Does the patent tell us anything about that?

[00:20:10] Speaker 04:
No, the patent doesn't tell us at all how to use these templates to generate a display or anything that is specific to using templates versus where the data comes from.

[00:20:22] Speaker 04:
The issue of who decides

[00:20:25] Speaker 04:
what category a movie fits in is just an issue of the source of the information.

[00:20:30] Speaker 04:
It's not a technical improvement.

[00:20:33] Speaker 04:
So if we look at the 026 claims and look at what the claims actually require of the user interface, it only requires two things.

[00:20:46] Speaker 04:
The first is that it enables a subscriber to navigate in a drill-down manner through titles by category information in order to locate a particular one of the titles.

[00:20:59] Speaker 04:
And as Judge Raino pointed out, that is just a hierarchical arrangement of categories and subcategories.

[00:21:10] Speaker 04:
The BBI TV's own expert acknowledged that Mr. Diaz obviously did not invent hierarchies or categories and subcategories.

[00:21:21] Speaker 04:
And he acknowledged that it was well known and that Mr. Diaz did not invent drilling down through such categories.

[00:21:28] Speaker 04:
The expert, in fact, described a system he worked on in the 80s of Procter & Gamble that did just that.

[00:21:35] Speaker 04:
Is this court held in AMRAP, right?

[00:21:37] Speaker 04:
A hierarchical menu is abstract.

[00:21:41] Speaker 02:
Did the court make that assessment of well-known when it was reviewing step one or step two?

[00:21:50] Speaker 04:
Both, Your Honor.

[00:21:52] Speaker 04:
He referenced the fact that it was acknowledged that the hierarchies were known and not invented by Mr. Diaz in his analysis of both step one and step two.

[00:22:02] Speaker 04:
If I recall correctly, Your Honor.

[00:22:05] Speaker 04:
If I go to the other part of the claim that talks about the user interface, the only thing it says about it is that it includes at least one of text, an image, a navigation link, and a button.

[00:22:23] Speaker 04:
But those are completely generic user interface features.

[00:22:28] Speaker 04:
In fact, this court in Gattingen said that if the notebook tabs had been just generic buttons or labels, those patents would have been ineligible.

[00:22:39] Speaker 04:
And in fact, the court found the patents that didn't specifically claim the notebook tab structure as ineligible.

[00:22:47] Speaker 04:
So the same applies here.

[00:22:50] Speaker 04:
I think the other important thing is what the spec itself says.

[00:22:57] Speaker 04:
about this hierarchical interface.

[00:23:00] Speaker 04:
And I think the key part is that column 17 finds 52 to 58.

[00:23:07] Speaker 03:
Which patent?

[00:23:08] Speaker 04:
This is of the 26th patent, sir, Your Honor.

[00:23:12] Speaker 04:
It's Appendix 66.

[00:23:13] Speaker 04:
I think we were just looking at that.

[00:23:18] Speaker 04:
And what it explains is that this hierarchical arrangement

[00:23:23] Speaker 04:
mirrors what is already being done on the web with URLs.

[00:23:30] Speaker 04:
And it says specifically, the hierarchical addressing string of terms resemble URL addressing commonly used on the internet.

[00:23:41] Speaker 04:
And it goes on and says, thus, internet users can readily become familiar with finding TV programs on the VOD EPG guide

[00:23:53] Speaker 04:
due to its resemblance to finding web sources with the URL.

[00:23:58] Speaker 04:
So here the patent itself is saying this is not a new unique user interface.

[00:24:03] Speaker 04:
It's a very familiar user interface, and that's one of the benefits.

[00:24:08] Speaker 03:
Isn't there at least a fact dispute at step two that the ordered combination, for instance, of using this in this new context and other elements in these claims that we should get you to a jury and get past summary judgment?

[00:24:21] Speaker 04:
Sure.

[00:24:22] Speaker 04:
So the only thing that they really point to except two are this templates, which is can't be an event of concept, because one, it's abstract, and two, it was admittedly well known.

[00:24:37] Speaker 04:
This notion that it is the content provider that categorizes the movies, that's just identifying the source of the information.

[00:24:46] Speaker 04:
And then the third thing is, they pointed to, and I didn't hear it from counsel today, was this web-based content management system, which is just like this server in TLI.

[00:24:58] Speaker 04:
So at the end of the day, this case is just like TLI.

[00:25:01] Speaker 04:
In TLI, you could upload a digital image with classification information.

[00:25:07] Speaker 04:
You had a generic server that could store those images according to that classification information.

[00:25:14] Speaker 04:
These claim the same thing, except instead of a digital image, you have a digital video.

[00:25:21] Speaker 04:
It's uploaded with some classification information, these categories and subcategories.

[00:25:26] Speaker 04:
The server stores them accordingly.

[00:25:28] Speaker 04:
And that's all this pen does.

[00:25:32] Speaker 02:
So even the portion of the pen that we were reading just now,

[00:25:40] Speaker 02:
It seems to suggest an orderly combination of steps, that there's certain steps that have to occur.

[00:25:46] Speaker 02:
And when the friend on the other side argued, I thought he was making close to persuasive case that these steps are orderly, that you have to go from one to the other, and that that itself begins to remove this out of the abstract world.

[00:26:02] Speaker 04:
Well, I think that the steps are the only natural ones.

[00:26:06] Speaker 04:
And just like TLI, you have to receive the information somewhere.

[00:26:09] Speaker 04:
You classify it according to the information that's provided.

[00:26:13] Speaker 04:
And then you display it.

[00:26:14] Speaker 04:
And there's nothing unique about that.

[00:26:17] Speaker 04:
That's the way these systems worked long before these patents.

[00:26:22] Speaker 04:
You have an electronic program guide.

[00:26:25] Speaker 04:
It displays the content.

[00:26:26] Speaker 04:
The content's classified based on some information that's provided.

[00:26:30] Speaker 04:
This is just another case like electric power or AI where we're receiving information, we're processing it, we're displaying it.

[00:26:40] Speaker 04:
There's no improvement to computer technology here.

[00:26:44] Speaker 04:
And just, we didn't hear it today, but this notion that this patent is somehow like McGraw,

[00:26:51] Speaker 04:
I do not see that at all.

[00:26:53] Speaker 04:
At McGill, there was real improvement to computer technology.

[00:26:58] Speaker 04:
We had these rules that would map time sequences of phonemes to morph weight weights that would move vertices in a three-dimensional model.

[00:27:09] Speaker 04:
That is a computer process that is specific, and we have nothing like that here.

[00:27:16] Speaker 03:
They're expert at, for instance, A2220.

[00:27:20] Speaker 03:
I opines that, for instance, the claims, I think this is back to the 026 family, specify an end-to-end solution for content providers to upload VOD content and metadata over the Internet.

[00:27:34] Speaker 03:
and that this technology is unconventional and inventive.

[00:27:40] Speaker 03:
This is all, for instance, at A2220.

[00:27:42] Speaker 03:
Why isn't that at least a fact dispute again at step two?

[00:27:46] Speaker 04:
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off there.

[00:27:48] Speaker 04:
That is just saying that the abstract idea is the inventive concept, right?

[00:27:54] Speaker 04:
The abstract idea is receiving hierarchical classification information with the video, storing it, displaying it.

[00:28:03] Speaker 04:
That's abstract.

[00:28:04] Speaker 04:
It can't be the inventive concept itself.

[00:28:06] Speaker 03:
So there may be a fact dispute over whether that was conventional, but that would be trumped by the idea that all it is is practicing the abstract idea.

[00:28:13] Speaker 04:
It's just the abstract idea.

[00:28:14] Speaker 04:
They're just touting the benefit of the abstract idea, Your Honor.

[00:28:19] Speaker 04:
If you have no further questions, I'll sit down.

[00:28:22] Speaker 04:
Thank you for your time.

[00:28:25] Speaker 01:
Thank you.

[00:28:25] Speaker 01:
Mr. Lampkin, you have two minutes.

[00:28:33] Speaker 00:
Thank you.

[00:28:34] Speaker 00:
I'd like to begin where my colleague began, which is with the statement that this is simply a way to construct the interface.

[00:28:41] Speaker 00:
It just tells you how to create the APGs.

[00:28:44] Speaker 00:
And that's exactly right, because when you have the specific content, the specific instructions, the specific method set forth in the claim, that specificity means it is an abstract idea.

[00:28:55] Speaker 00:
When it says use a three-template layer comprising layers with distinct characteristics,

[00:29:00] Speaker 00:
That is specific.

[00:29:01] Speaker 00:
It is not abstract.

[00:29:02] Speaker 00:
So if there were no three templates here, you agree it would be abstract?

[00:29:06] Speaker 00:
No, I don't think so, Your Honor, because I think it has other elements in this end-to-end solution.

[00:29:11] Speaker 00:
First, it does have the web-based upload where, and again, I have to make a correction.

[00:29:15] Speaker 00:
It's not just that the... The web-based upload is not abstract?

[00:29:19] Speaker 01:
Yes.

[00:29:19] Speaker 00:
No, it requires that the movie producers, the content creators, they enter

[00:29:26] Speaker 00:
the metadata, the images, the actual videos, they do that work, and then it is pulled up into your templatized display.

[00:29:35] Speaker 01:
That is very different.

[00:29:38] Speaker 00:
Who enters the data makes it not abstract?

[00:29:41] Speaker 00:
Well, certainly when you have an end-to-end solution, it's not just who enters the data, but that it's pulled up into your templatized display.

[00:29:46] Speaker 00:
I understand, Judge Dyke, that you may not be impressed with it, but that is a critical component, because what happens is everything is then in the right place for you to be able to navigate it appropriately, that it doesn't matter that it came from HBO, it doesn't matter that it comes from Amazon, it doesn't matter who it comes from.

[00:30:03] Speaker 00:
It always appears so you can have the same categories, the same buttons, the same way of doing it.

[00:30:08] Speaker 00:
And it's not at all like a PowerPoint, for example.

[00:30:11] Speaker 00:
The PowerPoint, I don't know whether they had layered displays in 2004, but they didn't have a three-layer display here.

[00:30:17] Speaker 00:
At least there's simply no evidence on the record of a three-layer display.

[00:30:21] Speaker 00:
And they certainly didn't have a three-layer display that would pull things up that were entered by other people and organize it in a way where you could navigate from one PowerPoint to another PowerPoint to another PowerPoint so as to make your way through it.

[00:30:33] Speaker 00:
And so I guess in that sense the suggestion that the only thing they're doing is adding the categories and it makes it look like TLI.

[00:30:39] Speaker 00:
It was the category information about the image.

[00:30:42] Speaker 00:
It's just not true.

[00:30:42] Speaker 00:
The actual images are uploaded by them.

[00:30:44] Speaker 00:
All the metadata, the actual video itself is uploaded by them.

[00:30:49] Speaker 01:
Okay.

[00:30:49] Speaker 01:
I think we're out of time.

[00:30:50] Speaker 01:
Thank you.

[00:30:51] Speaker 01:
Thank you so much.

[00:30:51] Speaker 01:
Thank you, Mr. Grant and thank you, Mr. Hadley.

[00:30:54] Speaker 01:
This concludes our session.