[00:00:00] Speaker 02:
Sorry for the extra effort, but my mind is hard-wired for when I'm called to the pilli, sir.

[00:00:08] Speaker 02:
Our next case is Phillips, again, versus Quechua virus, 2023, 1896, most today.

[00:00:18] Speaker 01:
Thank you, Your Honor.

[00:00:21] Speaker 01:
This patent at issue in this appeal, the 216 patent, there's just one claim at issue.

[00:00:28] Speaker 01:
It has the same specification as the 028 patent discussed in the prior appeal, but this claim actually is directed to a situation where there's an interruption to transmission on existing channels.

[00:00:45] Speaker 01:
That's explicit in the plain language of the claim.

[00:00:48] Speaker 01:
The limitation that I'd like to focus on a bit is directed to that issue, which is what we've called limitation 9b, where there's setting an initial transmission power following the interruption.

[00:01:06] Speaker 01:
So the first transmission that happens after existing channels have an interruption, intentional or unintentional.

[00:01:16] Speaker 01:
and the power control is lost.

[00:01:19] Speaker 01:
So the question is how to address that.

[00:01:21] Speaker 01:
The solution is you apply an offset.

[00:01:26] Speaker 01:
So look at the one option, which would be to apply the same transmission power that the mobile station used prior to the interruption.

[00:01:41] Speaker 01:
The claim solution is described at column five, and what that says is, don't do that, apply an offset to that initial transmission.

[00:01:53] Speaker 01:
The last element says that that is determined by a weighted average of the transmission power before the interruption, so it's looking back historically.

[00:02:08] Speaker 01:
The prior arc here, again, describes a situation that addresses this issue as well, but it does it in a different way.

[00:02:19] Speaker 01:
And it actually does it in a way that the patent talks about.

[00:02:22] Speaker 03:
Just to be clear, in your claimed invention here, in this particular appeal,

[00:02:29] Speaker 03:
There's no request for resources or acknowledgement happening here.

[00:02:33] Speaker 03:
This is just a temporary interruption where a logical connection has been maintained.

[00:02:39] Speaker 01:
That's correct, Your Honor.

[00:02:40] Speaker 01:
No request, no acknowledgement, because it's not necessary, because a logical connection is maintained.

[00:02:46] Speaker 03:
Maybe there's like a five-second interruption or something like that.

[00:02:50] Speaker 01:
I don't know the exact timing, but these mobile phones

[00:02:56] Speaker 01:
program that they operate to intentionally interrupt transmission to see if there's a base station that might have a better signal.

[00:03:04] Speaker 01:
So that's an intentional interruption.

[00:03:07] Speaker 01:
There's the ones we talked about driving under the underpass, but you get back quick enough.

[00:03:14] Speaker 01:
So what the solution is,

[00:03:18] Speaker 01:
There's nothing about a delay.

[00:03:19] Speaker 01:
The solution is supply and offset.

[00:03:22] Speaker 01:
So the reason for that, that the patent describes, is in that time that I've been driving, maybe it was quick, but I may be driving away from the base station.

[00:03:34] Speaker 01:
And if I'm driving away from the base station, all things being equal, I'm probably going to, when I resume, I need to, the mobile station should be transmitting at a higher power level.

[00:03:47] Speaker 01:
So the idea of the offset is let's look at a way to immediately set the initial data transmission, the first one following the interruption, with a higher power level.

[00:04:01] Speaker 01:
Now the distinction that's important relative to the Aegon reference, and there's kind of intertwined claim construction and technical issues here, Your Honor, is that Aegon talks about a process

[00:04:17] Speaker 01:
where you have to adjust the step size adjustments are applied.

[00:04:27] Speaker 01:
And that happens after that first transmission.

[00:04:32] Speaker 01:
So in the first transmission,

[00:04:34] Speaker 01:
According to the invention, there's an offset applied.

[00:04:37] Speaker 01:
In Aegon, we don't know what the first transmission is.

[00:04:41] Speaker 01:
It doesn't speak to it.

[00:04:42] Speaker 01:
But we do know this.

[00:04:44] Speaker 01:
We know that Aegon is concerned with figuring out how much adjustment should be made if it gets a power control command saying increase or decrease from the base station.

[00:04:57] Speaker 01:
Aegon says, well, normally I'd adjust it a little bit, like 1 dB.

[00:05:03] Speaker 01:
Now, for a period following an eruption, I'll adjust it 2 dB, because that will get me to my target power faster.

[00:05:09] Speaker 01:
That's what Agen describes.

[00:05:11] Speaker 01:
And relevant to the claim construction issue, the patent actually describes another solution very similar to Agen in reference to Figure 4, where it applies a step size adjustment that might not be the standard step size adjustment.

[00:05:29] Speaker 01:
And we raised, granted it's a technical argument to the board, we said in AGINT, it's not applying.

[00:05:37] Speaker 01:
First, there's nothing that says anything about the initial transmission, number one.

[00:05:43] Speaker 01:
And number two, even if there is some adjustment on the initial transmission, what's being applied is not an offset.

[00:05:51] Speaker 01:
It's a step-size adjustment.

[00:05:54] Speaker 01:
which is 1 or 2 dB, it's not something that can vary in magnitude the way an offset may.

[00:06:05] Speaker 01:
The most important distinction in my mind is that the step size adjustment requires feedback from the base station.

[00:06:16] Speaker 01:
In order for that base station to tell the mobile, increase or decrease your power.

[00:06:22] Speaker 01:
That's all it does.

[00:06:24] Speaker 01:
It's a power control command.

[00:06:25] Speaker 01:
It's a single bit.

[00:06:27] Speaker 01:
Zero means lower the power.

[00:06:30] Speaker 01:
One means increase the power.

[00:06:33] Speaker 01:
For the base station to figure that out, it has to take measurements from the prior transmission from the mobile station.

[00:06:42] Speaker 01:
So we pointed this out, said, look, Agen doesn't tell me anything about initial transmission.

[00:06:50] Speaker 01:
And to the extent we apply what Agen says, it says,

[00:06:55] Speaker 01:
you have to, and figure three, which is what Coctail relied on, the whole left side of that figure is about the base station providing feedback, telling the mobile station whether to increase or decrease, and that requires a measurement.

[00:07:13] Speaker 03:
The question I have here is that Hagen talks about this power control loop and talks about

[00:07:23] Speaker 03:
getting the transmissions going after an interruption.

[00:07:27] Speaker 03:
It talks about using this particular algorithm where you figure out whether the step size you're going to use is a delta 1 or a delta 2.

[00:07:37] Speaker 03:
And I think I understand the board is saying that's for all transmissions after an interruption, including the very initial transmission.

[00:07:48] Speaker 03:
And your question is, okay, but which

[00:07:53] Speaker 03:
Power level can the system choose for the very first transmission after an interruption.

[00:08:01] Speaker 03:
And I think the board is saying, well, you just by default use whatever power level there was before the interruption occurred.

[00:08:12] Speaker 03:
And then I understand the claims as well.

[00:08:14] Speaker 03:
You use that old power transmission level plus an adjustment, right?

[00:08:21] Speaker 01:
I don't fully understand the board's reasoning on the timing.

[00:08:27] Speaker 01:
One critical issue in our view is, in Aegon's system, is there any adjustment made whatsoever on the first transmission?

[00:08:35] Speaker 01:
And our expert said, it's silent.

[00:08:38] Speaker 01:
We don't know.

[00:08:39] Speaker 01:
The obvious thing for it to do maybe would be to just use the same power level where it left off.

[00:08:46] Speaker 01:
And the board seems to acknowledge that.

[00:08:49] Speaker 01:
And somehow, I have the impression they thought that that meets the claim language.

[00:08:54] Speaker 01:
But it just does not.

[00:08:55] Speaker 03:
What if we were to read the board decision of saying, well, not only do you use that old power level right before the interruption, but you also use whatever was the last available power control command in Aegon before the interruption.

[00:09:12] Speaker 03:
And you apply that.

[00:09:15] Speaker 03:
power control command to that last occurring transmission level.

[00:09:20] Speaker 03:
So you do know – you do have the – that not only the adjustment size from delta 1, delta 2, but you also have the adjustment direction up or down.

[00:09:33] Speaker 03:
Why would that be an unreasonable leading of AGIT?

[00:09:37] Speaker 03:
Assuming this is in fact what the board found.

[00:09:41] Speaker 01:
there's two problems with that.

[00:09:45] Speaker 01:
As a factual matter, IGN itself says at the top of column two that during the time of the interruption, power control suspended, there's no signals coming from the base station.

[00:09:59] Speaker 03:
I accept that in my

[00:10:02] Speaker 03:
hypothetical, that you aren't getting any feedback or information transmitted back and forth during the interruption.

[00:10:09] Speaker 03:
And so what you're relegated to doing is using last available information.

[00:10:13] Speaker 03:
Last available information on power level, last available information on power control command, up or down.

[00:10:20] Speaker 01:
Well, I think there's an assumption about using the last available power control command.

[00:10:26] Speaker 01:
I mean, if it got a power control command, if there's a transmission prior to the interruption, got a command, it sends a transmission after adjusting based on that command.

[00:10:37] Speaker 01:
There's nothing in EGIN that suggests, and then there would be an additional one that you just hang on to.

[00:10:44] Speaker 01:
But assuming that if the board thought that way and that's what they were saying, we also pointed out, and I think the board acknowledged, that applying an offset as the claim requires is not the same as a step size adjustment.

[00:11:00] Speaker 01:
The reason is, we articulated this, that an offset is a one-time adjustment.

[00:11:09] Speaker 01:
it can have a varying magnitude.

[00:11:12] Speaker 01:
It's not a fixed magnitude.

[00:11:14] Speaker 01:
Most importantly, it's based on the step size adjustment requires this feedback from the base station.

[00:11:23] Speaker 01:
If you're not getting it, I realize this is going back to the earlier point, but if you're not getting that feedback,

[00:11:29] Speaker 01:
from the base station, there's no ability for Agen to make that adjustment.

[00:11:35] Speaker 01:
I guess one of our biggest concerns with the opinion was we made these arguments, but the board just didn't seem to address them, specifically about Agen.

[00:11:49] Speaker 01:
That was in our survey reply.

[00:11:51] Speaker 01:
Notably, neither of the board's opinions addressed anything we said in the survey reply on this point.

[00:11:58] Speaker 01:
What the board did point to was its own initial findings, which, frankly, our impression was they didn't fully understand the invention, and it was a preliminary finding.

[00:12:11] Speaker 01:
I mean, that's fair.

[00:12:13] Speaker 01:
We tried to clarify it immediately in our response, and we didn't see anything where the board addressed it.

[00:12:20] Speaker 01:
And then in their

[00:12:23] Speaker 03:
This is what I'm trying to figure out about Agen, Figure 3.

[00:12:26] Speaker 03:
Yes, Your Honor.

[00:12:27] Speaker 03:
And Agen needs to have an initial transmission after an interruption.

[00:12:31] Speaker 03:
Everybody agrees with that.

[00:12:32] Speaker 01:
It would happen.

[00:12:33] Speaker 03:
Agen doesn't explain expressly what that initial transmission would look like.

[00:12:39] Speaker 03:
Correct.

[00:12:39] Speaker 03:
But I think it's fair to assume that you would just draw from, as a default, whatever was the last power level before the interruption occurred.

[00:12:48] Speaker 03:
Then the next question is would you nevertheless still add a delta one, delta two to that last power level for your initial transmission after an interruption and then do an up or down adjustment to that last power level?

[00:13:04] Speaker 03:
And I guess the question I have as a technical matter is would you really do that because by the time you are doing initial transmission after an interruption, that power control command up or down is now outdated.

[00:13:18] Speaker 03:
to a certain degree.

[00:13:19] Speaker 03:
We're already several slots past in terms of time.

[00:13:26] Speaker 01:
That's exactly right, Your Honor.

[00:13:28] Speaker 01:
I mean, there's no indication you retained this prior power control command.

[00:13:33] Speaker 01:
But if you did, it may not be valid for the reason you just pointed to.

[00:13:39] Speaker 03:
Did your experts say anything like that?

[00:13:43] Speaker 01:
Our expert first said it was silent.

[00:13:46] Speaker 01:
Our expert talked quite a bit about the difference between step size adjustment.

[00:13:53] Speaker 01:
I don't recall that they expressly said anything about valid power control or invalid power control, but he certainly described in great detail the purpose of the invention and why it was different than this other concept of using the step size adjustment.

[00:14:11] Speaker 01:
Now, there was a SO reply from Coctail.

[00:14:16] Speaker 01:
In the SO reply, they kind of denied everything.

[00:14:20] Speaker 01:
At that point, we couldn't bring in more expert testimony.

[00:14:25] Speaker 01:
What we did bring in was

[00:14:28] Speaker 01:
Aegon itself.

[00:14:30] Speaker 01:
I think the best evidence of how someone would understand Aegon is Aegon itself, which says there's no power control commands coming during an eruption.

[00:14:41] Speaker 01:
I think it's speculation to say that you retain a power control command.

[00:14:47] Speaker 01:
For the point I think you've alluded to, Your Honor, it makes no sense because in that time period, you may be driving away from the base station.

[00:14:55] Speaker 01:
The last command might say decrease your power.

[00:14:58] Speaker 01:
you know, when you really should be increasing it at that point.

[00:15:01] Speaker 02:
So as you can see here, full time is almost expired.

[00:15:05] Speaker 02:
I'll give you two minutes for a battle.

[00:15:07] Speaker 01:
Thank you, Your Honor.

[00:15:09] Speaker 02:
Mr. Courtney.

[00:15:18] Speaker 00:
Thank you, Your Honor.

[00:15:18] Speaker 00:
Robert Courtney from Fish and Richardson for Quectel.

[00:15:22] Speaker 00:
Because I think the exchange that my colleague representing Phillips just gave illustrates this is very much a technical argument that Phillips is advancing.

[00:15:32] Speaker 00:
And Judge Chen, you asked, I think, correctly, why is what the board did unreasonable?

[00:15:37] Speaker 00:
We're under deferential review as to these fact determinations.

[00:15:40] Speaker 04:
Did the board address the public control command issue at all?

[00:15:46] Speaker 00:
Yes, the short answer is yes.

[00:15:48] Speaker 00:
The board addressed it in two different respects.

[00:15:50] Speaker 00:
The first is it addressed this argument that Phillips has presented that an offset, the clean turn offset requires a different treatment for the initial communication than for any other communication.

[00:16:03] Speaker 00:
The board described how there's no hint of that in the specification.

[00:16:06] Speaker 00:
or the claims.

[00:16:08] Speaker 00:
In fact, it's cited to the specification where it says the offset can be mapped to the steps.

[00:16:14] Speaker 00:
And you can have a one-to-one mapping.

[00:16:15] Speaker 00:
The offset and the step size can be the same.

[00:16:18] Speaker 00:
The board expressly considered and rejected the idea that the offset is this special creation that only is used for this initial communication.

[00:16:28] Speaker 00:
So that's the first.

[00:16:30] Speaker 00:
And then it also, and by the way, I want to emphasize that determination by the board is wholly consistent with the exact same determination that the examiner made when he rejected these claims over Agen.

[00:16:43] Speaker 00:
These claims were rejected over Agen.

[00:16:45] Speaker 03:
Right, but that office action was pretty conclusive.

[00:16:48] Speaker 03:
It just said Agen teaches the following.

[00:16:51] Speaker 03:
See the claim.

[00:16:52] Speaker 03:
It doesn't really explain.

[00:16:54] Speaker 03:
how to answer for this one question that has been raised by the other side and has been raised consistently throughout, which is the idea of

[00:17:04] Speaker 03:
what in the world do you do about applying an up or down power control command to that very first transmission after an interruption when you haven't been receiving or sending any control information back or forth during the interruption?

[00:17:21] Speaker 03:
How in the world, once you start firing things back up, do you know whether to go up or down with your step size?

[00:17:35] Speaker 00:
That issue, the up or down issue, I'm not aware of that being developed in the record by any party.

[00:17:41] Speaker 00:
Let's assume that it is.

[00:17:43] Speaker 00:
Let's assume that it is.

[00:17:45] Speaker 03:
Yes.

[00:17:45] Speaker 03:
Yes.

[00:17:45] Speaker 03:
In the Patna response, they highlighted this.

[00:17:49] Speaker 03:
They highlighted a lot of different things.

[00:17:50] Speaker 03:
But one of the things they highlighted was this question of

[00:17:53] Speaker 03:
The problem with an agent's initial transmission after an interruption is it doesn't have the power control command information necessary in order to even apply its delta one or delta two because it doesn't have on hand anything usable from the base station on that score.

[00:18:14] Speaker 00:
So I think what we have is the experts who analyze this, Dr. Ding and Dr. Jackson.

[00:18:20] Speaker 00:
And both of them agreed that in these systems, the offset when these systems encounter interruption in transmission all the time, and they always apply the delta offset.

[00:18:31] Speaker 00:
And Dr. Jackson specifically said this.

[00:18:34] Speaker 00:
This is at appendix 1495.

[00:18:36] Speaker 00:
The question was, in here, the delta resume offset is being used after every transmission gap, correct?

[00:18:43] Speaker 00:
Answer, yes.

[00:18:45] Speaker 00:
That's hyphen.

[00:18:46] Speaker 00:
I mean, the delta resume is used after the transmission gap.

[00:18:50] Speaker 00:
So this was not a matter of dispute that these delta offsets were going to be applied.

[00:18:54] Speaker 03:
Hold on.

[00:18:55] Speaker 03:
This is the whole dispute.

[00:18:57] Speaker 03:
You know, for the initial transmission, you know, you can just look at the patented response at A325.

[00:19:04] Speaker 03:
They make it very clear that for that initial transmission, there's just no up or down control command available.

[00:19:10] Speaker 03:
Why?

[00:19:11] Speaker 03:
Because there's been no uplink signal from the mobile station for the base station to measure because of the interruption.

[00:19:18] Speaker 03:
And so what you just quoted from Dr. Ding, he says, just asserts, yes, you're going to use the step size.

[00:19:27] Speaker 03:
You're going to use the delta for every single transmission.

[00:19:30] Speaker 03:
But he doesn't explain anything about the power control command.

[00:19:34] Speaker 03:
You need a lot of different pieces.

[00:19:36] Speaker 03:
You need whatever is your baseline power level.

[00:19:39] Speaker 03:
You need to know the size of your step size, delta.

[00:19:42] Speaker 03:
And you also need to know a third thing, the up or the down.

[00:19:46] Speaker 03:
Are you going to?

[00:19:48] Speaker 03:
increase the power level by the delta, or are you going to decrease the power level by the delta?

[00:19:53] Speaker 03:
I don't see Dr. Ding saying anything about that, and I also don't quite see the board answering this very specific question.

[00:20:03] Speaker 00:
So a couple of responses.

[00:20:05] Speaker 00:
First, what I just read is Dr. Jackson.

[00:20:07] Speaker 00:
It's not Dr. Ding.

[00:20:08] Speaker 00:
It's their expert.

[00:20:10] Speaker 00:
Second, I think the board does address this when it says it would only be logical, right, if you're trying to restore a communication and you're making an adjustment to step size, which is what Aegon says, right?

[00:20:22] Speaker 00:
There's a timer that's running, and if the attempt at restoration is within the timer, you have one step size, and if the attempt at restoration is outside the timer, you have a different step size.

[00:20:31] Speaker 00:
The board describes this in detail.

[00:20:33] Speaker 00:
And then the board says, it would be logical if you're adjusting the step size, you're going to have communications that reflect that adjustment.

[00:20:41] Speaker 00:
That's why you did it in the first place.

[00:20:42] Speaker 00:
Now, does the word use the words up or down?

[00:20:44] Speaker 00:
No, it doesn't.

[00:20:46] Speaker 00:
But it certainly considered these arguments, and it cites to the record, and it finds Dr. Ding's explanation that this is the basic logic of signaling more persuasive.

[00:20:56] Speaker 00:
It makes an expressed credibility determination.

[00:21:01] Speaker 04:
Other than the statement that the board made concerning that it would be logical.

[00:21:08] Speaker 04:
I don't see where the board addressed the power control command issue at all.

[00:21:14] Speaker 04:
It seems to me they bypassed that.

[00:21:18] Speaker 00:
Respectfully, I think the board's decision is best understood.

[00:21:20] Speaker 00:
They don't dispute that during the gap in transmission, there's not an active exchange.

[00:21:25] Speaker 00:
We know that.

[00:21:27] Speaker 00:
What we mean, the board is saying,

[00:21:29] Speaker 00:
and I think it's well supported by the record, is it's going to use available information

[00:21:39] Speaker 00:
I've been handed Appendix 16 where the board expressly describes how Agen describes using Delta 1 and Delta 2 and combining the up or down power control commands to attain the resulting power control commands.

[00:21:54] Speaker 00:
So the board certainly did consider this issue.

[00:21:57] Speaker 00:
I think we're now in this special case that Phillips has posited where the initial has special importance.

[00:22:02] Speaker 00:
The board rejected that as a matter of clean construction.

[00:22:04] Speaker 00:
That rejection was correct.

[00:22:07] Speaker 03:
But even more about the correct claim construction, the board has expressly analyzed this issue and found... But the question still remains, where does Egan get the power control command for the initial transmission after an interruption?

[00:22:25] Speaker 03:
there hasn't been any immediately preceding communication of control information between the mobile station and the base station.

[00:22:34] Speaker 03:
So where is it coming from?

[00:22:37] Speaker 00:
So Agen expressly describes using the power control apparatus as it existed prior to the

[00:22:46] Speaker 00:
the interruption.

[00:22:46] Speaker 00:
Interruption, right.

[00:22:48] Speaker 03:
Does it actually say that?

[00:22:50] Speaker 03:
Does it actually say expressing?

[00:22:52] Speaker 03:
You just said it expresses.

[00:22:53] Speaker 00:
I'm sorry, the board made that finding.

[00:22:56] Speaker 00:
I don't want to overstate what Aidan actually says in his text.

[00:22:58] Speaker 00:
The board made the finding.

[00:23:00] Speaker 00:
Right.

[00:23:00] Speaker 03:
And then the next question is, what justification do they have?

[00:23:06] Speaker 03:
Again, as a technical matter, why would you use a still outdated power control command from

[00:23:16] Speaker 03:
several clicks of time before and choose to then make an adjustment to your power level away from whatever the power level happened to be before the interruption.

[00:23:31] Speaker 03:
It feels a little random, I guess is what I'm wondering.

[00:23:34] Speaker 00:
And I think there is an element here.

[00:23:36] Speaker 00:
We are coming out of a period of no information.

[00:23:39] Speaker 00:
All parties recognize that.

[00:23:41] Speaker 00:
And the board is saying, I think, a couple things.

[00:23:44] Speaker 00:
Number one is you have to make a decision.

[00:23:46] Speaker 00:
You have to start somewhere.

[00:23:48] Speaker 00:
There's really only three things you can do.

[00:23:50] Speaker 00:
You can go up.

[00:23:50] Speaker 00:
You can go down.

[00:23:51] Speaker 00:
You can say the same.

[00:23:53] Speaker 00:
And the board is saying, logically, it would make logical sense.

[00:23:58] Speaker 00:
One could make a logical argument for any of those three, I would submit.

[00:24:01] Speaker 00:
And maybe we're in a Kenamettle situation, where all three of them are being discussed.

[00:24:05] Speaker 03:
It's not about Kenamettle in this case.

[00:24:09] Speaker 00:
But I do think we are in a world where a person of skill reading this understands that the number of options you can apply for setting that initial power level is very limited.

[00:24:19] Speaker 00:
And Dr. Ding and Dr. Jackson both explain that these systems, when they communicate at that initial power level, are going to use the offset computation that they just computed, as per Agen.

[00:24:31] Speaker 00:
Agen describes that offset computation.

[00:24:34] Speaker 00:
And I think that's more than sufficient for the board to rest on when it's finding that the disclosure here met the requirements for, you know, real obviousness technically, but as to this aspect, it's 102.

[00:24:46] Speaker 03:
Where did Dean say you would just use that last information, that last control information of moving up or down?

[00:24:56] Speaker 00:
I'm not aware of him saying using up or down.

[00:25:00] Speaker 00:
But he certainly said you would combine the offset with the known power state and use that way.

[00:25:07] Speaker 00:
The up or down, I have to look at the record.

[00:25:15] Speaker 04:
How else would you adjust power if not up or down?

[00:25:20] Speaker 04:
And I think that's very much the board's point is to say... They just don't make the point.

[00:25:26] Speaker 04:
I'm not satisfied with the answers to my question, that the board actually addressed the issue.

[00:25:37] Speaker 04:
I mean, we're talking about claim language, simply move from just the power level in response to power control commands, and then setting the initial power after an interruption.

[00:25:48] Speaker 04:
And I guess I could accept the board's logic, but I'd like to see them written finally, as you said.

[00:25:56] Speaker 00:
I mean, there's a finding on this point.

[00:25:58] Speaker 00:
I believe it's at Appendix 13.

[00:26:00] Speaker 00:
I can double check that.

[00:26:04] Speaker 00:
Where the board expressly says that would be logical.

[00:26:06] Speaker 00:
And that's what's required for disclosure under these circumstances.

[00:26:11] Speaker 00:
And it relies on Dr. Ding's testimony.

[00:26:14] Speaker 00:
And it notes that Dr. Jackson said as to this point,

[00:26:18] Speaker 00:
There was not an express disclosure in Agen, and he's correct.

[00:26:21] Speaker 00:
There isn't an express disclosure in Agen on this point.

[00:26:24] Speaker 00:
But when you look at the larger context of how these systems work, and when you consider Dr. Jackson's testimony at deposition confirming that that offset is going to be applied every time, he doesn't describe up or down, but he does describe its application every time there's a gap in communications, I think that's very much a sufficient evidentiary basis for the board to make its finding as part of its

[00:26:48] Speaker 00:
technical fact-finding role to say that the AGIN has the necessary disclosure.

[00:26:53] Speaker 00:
And again, that's on all fours with the file history here, where AGIN was expressly before the office.

[00:27:04] Speaker 00:
And I'm corrected.

[00:27:05] Speaker 00:
I see this is Appendix 38.

[00:27:08] Speaker 00:
We see this again.

[00:27:08] Speaker 00:
I believe this is in the rehearing decision by the board.

[00:27:15] Speaker 00:
Again, laying out how this is a finding they're making, that it's logical for a person of skill reviewing EGIN to conclude that it's being the necessary starting point for that initial communication.

[00:27:35] Speaker 02:
Anything further to answer?

[00:27:38] Speaker 00:
My colleague did not raise any of the issues regarding motivation to combine, so we'll rest on the briefs for that.

[00:27:43] Speaker 02:
I think Mr. Corkley and Mr. Beck has a couple of minutes for a bottle.

[00:27:52] Speaker 01:
Thank you, Your Honor.

[00:27:54] Speaker 01:
I want to address one point about quantizing.

[00:27:56] Speaker 01:
I don't know if my colleague used that term, but what he was referring to, the board seemed to weigh heavily this remark in the specification that the value of the offset can be quantized to the value of an available step size.

[00:28:15] Speaker 01:
And just to be clear on what that means, because the first time I read it, it wasn't clear to me, but what it means is

[00:28:24] Speaker 01:
If you calculate your offset, say it's 5.4 dB, and your available step size, the increments that you routinely use to adjust step size, that has a value that happens to be 2 dB, then because it's easier for the system, because it works in those increments, it says quantize, so making it integer, multiple,

[00:28:53] Speaker 01:
of whatever the step size is, the magnitude is.

[00:28:57] Speaker 01:
So if the magnitude's two, you round up to six.

[00:29:00] Speaker 01:
So it's three times.

[00:29:01] Speaker 01:
Six is not two.

[00:29:03] Speaker 01:
It's an integer value of the value of a step size.

[00:29:10] Speaker 01:
That doesn't mean that step size is the same as an offset according to claims.

[00:29:16] Speaker 01:
The bigger point, I think, not just that it would have it, it often has a different magnitude.

[00:29:24] Speaker 01:
That doesn't tell you anything about

[00:29:27] Speaker 01:
whether to increase or decrease.

[00:29:29] Speaker 01:
The key part of the step size adjustment is requiring this feedback from the mobile station.

[00:29:36] Speaker 01:
Aegon doesn't say what its initial transmission is at all, ever, and to the extent you can infer what it would be, it would be don't apply anything on the first transmission because anything we had was no longer valid.

[00:29:52] Speaker 01:
For those reasons, we asked for the board's finance to be vacated.

[00:29:56] Speaker 02:
Thank you to both judges and the cases submitted.