[00:00:00] Speaker 03: Our next case is netlist Inc. [00:00:02] Speaker 03: vs. Samson electronics company docket number 24-1859 Councilor Husham you have reserved five minutes of reserve, is that correct? [00:00:22] Speaker 03: Sir, you have reserved five minutes? [00:00:25] Speaker 01: Yes, I have reserved five minutes. [00:00:27] Speaker 01: Thank you. [00:00:28] Speaker 01: Thank you, and it may please the court. [00:00:30] Speaker 01: I'm going to address the 918-054 IPR. [00:00:35] Speaker 01: The claims in those patents require voltage converters on the DIMM itself that get power from the host system through an edge connector. [00:00:46] Speaker 01: And that's a critical limitation because standard DIMMs get their power through an edge connector. [00:00:51] Speaker 01: So if you want to be compatible with the standard DIMM, you need to be able to get your power through the edge connector. [00:00:58] Speaker 01: I want to start with Harris, which actually teaches you the opposite of what the claim requires. [00:01:03] Speaker 01: Harris says Harris teaches a DIMM that has voltage converters on the DIMM, but instead of powering it from the edge connector so that you can plug it into a standard motherboard, what Harris teaches is that you plug it from a, quote, external power source with a different connector. [00:01:21] Speaker 01: And Harris is very clear that this external power source, which is undisputed that that's what Harris's figure 1A is relying on, is different than the motherboard power source that's delivered through the standard edge connector. [00:01:36] Speaker 01: If you look at paragraphs two and three of Harris, it contrasts the prior art, which is the, quote, standard memory modules powered from system board for- Can you give us the page number? [00:01:51] Speaker 01: Oh, sorry. [00:01:51] Speaker 01: 46 74 of the appendix thank you and so it's a paragraph to right there in about you know right below the middle line it says It becomes [00:02:18] Speaker 01: Yeah, so standard memory modules are powered from, quote, system board or main board voltage sources. [00:02:26] Speaker 01: Where are you reading from? [00:02:27] Speaker 01: This is paragraph two on appendix 4674. [00:02:29] Speaker 01: Where in that paragraph? [00:02:33] Speaker 04: Say again? [00:02:33] Speaker 04: Where in that paragraph? [00:02:35] Speaker 01: It's right in the middle about 11 lines down. [00:02:45] Speaker 01: It's talking about standard memory modules that are powered from system board or main board voltage sources. [00:02:53] Speaker 01: And then in the next paragraph, it describes the invention in paragraph three. [00:02:58] Speaker 01: And it says on the third line of the next paragraph that the invention has a power supply that gets power from a, quote, external source. [00:03:09] Speaker 01: So it's talking about the prior system board or main board voltage sources in contrast to the external source of the invention. [00:03:16] Speaker 02: Didn't the board rely on the background, though, as much as it relied on the invention of Harris? [00:03:22] Speaker 01: Yes, and so that is going to the combination issue. [00:03:26] Speaker 01: So the parties agree here that what the board did is the petition relies on Harris's Figure 1A. [00:03:33] Speaker 01: And what the board said is, well, it doesn't matter where Figure 1A gets the power. [00:03:39] Speaker 01: Skilled artisans would know that a conventional DIM gets power from the motherboard. [00:03:46] Speaker 01: And so they would use that teaching. [00:03:47] Speaker 01: They would modify Harris. [00:03:49] Speaker 01: And there's a number of problems with that. [00:03:51] Speaker 01: First of all, [00:03:52] Speaker 01: Harris, this court's president makes clear cases like Flefax. [00:03:57] Speaker 01: If you are taking multiple embodiments even within the same reference, you have to have a motivation for why you would do that. [00:04:04] Speaker 01: So if Harris is teaching getting power from an external source, and the board is saying, well, you could get, based on the background of Harris, power from the mother board, it had to supply a motivation. [00:04:16] Speaker 01: And as we explained in our brief, the board never [00:04:19] Speaker 01: gave a motivation to make that change. [00:04:22] Speaker 01: And there's good reasons there's not a motivation that is apparent here. [00:04:26] Speaker 01: When you make that change, you're actually changing Harris's system quite a bit. [00:04:30] Speaker 01: So in a conventional DIM, there is a power converter on the motherboard that's delivering voltage through the edge connector to the components on the DIM. [00:04:40] Speaker 01: But if you then, what Harris does is it puts a power converter on the DIM itself. [00:04:45] Speaker 01: If you then make the board's modification, [00:04:48] Speaker 01: And then you power that converter from the motherboard. [00:04:51] Speaker 01: You're introducing two levels of conversion. [00:04:53] Speaker 01: You're converting it on the motherboard. [00:04:55] Speaker 01: You're delivering it through the edge connector. [00:04:57] Speaker 01: And you're converting it again on the DIM. [00:05:01] Speaker 01: And if you look at, for example, the appendix, [00:05:06] Speaker 01: 86 37 these converters are not perfectly efficient every time you go through a conversion step They're only 70 to 85 percent efficient these PWM converters So in the combination that the board did efficiency delivery power. [00:05:24] Speaker 01: Yes, you start out with a certain amount of power and [00:05:26] Speaker 01: you lose 25% or 15% on the motherboard converter, you lose another 15% on the DIM. [00:05:33] Speaker 01: So it's not apparent why skilled artisans would introduce these multiple levels of regulation. [00:05:40] Speaker 01: But more importantly, if the board thought that skilled artisans would do this, as Judge Stark said, relying on the background to take part of the background prior art and then also part of Harris's figure 1A and combine them, it needed to identify [00:05:55] Speaker 01: some sort of motivation. [00:05:56] Speaker 01: You know, Samsung could have provided evidence saying skilled artisans would make this change, but there's nothing in the record on that. [00:06:05] Speaker 01: More importantly, Harris teaches you not to do that. [00:06:07] Speaker 01: So what Harris does is it starts with the conventional thing that gets power from the motherboard, and it introduces a change. [00:06:14] Speaker 01: It takes [00:06:15] Speaker 01: dispenses with the motherboard power it puts the voltage converter on the motherboard itself and it says get the power from an external source and it teaches all sorts of reasons for that that has benefits it improves upgradability it improves the the component so what the board is [00:06:36] Speaker 01: is saying that skilled artisans would have been motivated to do is take Harris. [00:06:40] Speaker 01: Harris starts with the standard FBDim, makes these changes, and the board is saying, well, skilled artisans would have changed part of Harris back to the old way of doing it. [00:06:50] Speaker 01: And we think Harris teaches away from doing that because it is telling you not to use the motherboard power supply, but instead to use this external power supply, which in paragraphs two and three is very clearly referring to something other than a motherboard source. [00:07:06] Speaker 01: And the board just doesn't address that. [00:07:09] Speaker 01: It doesn't give any kind of rationale for the motivation at all. [00:07:15] Speaker 01: In addition, there is a suggestion by Samsung in its brief that what Harris does is actually doesn't eliminate the motherboard power source, but instead Harris' figure 1A DIM actually gets a 12 volt power source from the motherboard. [00:07:33] Speaker 01: And that argument is really based on a statement by the board that's just doubly erroneous. [00:07:41] Speaker 01: And I ask the court to please just turn to page 49 of the appendix that's in the same volume where Harris is. [00:07:51] Speaker 03: That's in the blue? [00:07:52] Speaker 01: It's also in the blue brief. [00:07:53] Speaker 01: It's the board's decision at appendix 49. [00:08:01] Speaker 01: So. [00:08:03] Speaker 01: If you look at one, two, three, four, about seven lines down, the board says, [00:08:11] Speaker 01: Harris's teaching of replacing power supply interface pins with as few as six 12-volt pins, and it ends the quote right there, means that those pins take the place of the 72 pins in the interface, implying that power still comes from the interface with the host system. [00:08:30] Speaker 01: The problem with that finding is that the board emitted the parenthetical that appears in Harris right after 12-volt pins. [00:08:38] Speaker 01: In Harris, it says, you replace the [00:08:41] Speaker 01: pins on the connector with 12-volt pins from an external source. [00:08:46] Speaker 01: And the board omits that parenthetical, which makes clear you're not just changing the number of pins. [00:08:53] Speaker 01: You're changing the source of the power. [00:08:55] Speaker 01: And so the board, by overlooking that, just fundamentally misread what Harris is doing. [00:09:00] Speaker 01: And there's actually a second mistake. [00:09:03] Speaker 01: If the court looks at Appendix 50, the second paragraph four lines or three lines down. [00:09:11] Speaker 01: The board thought that the reason that Harris got 12-volt power from the FB DIMM, the FB DIMM is the standard that Harris starts with. [00:09:21] Speaker 01: It starts with FB DIMM, and then it changes it by changing it to an external source. [00:09:26] Speaker 01: What the board said is, quote, the experts agree that it was common at the time [00:09:31] Speaker 01: for the host system to provide the regulated 12-volt power supply to the FBDIM. [00:09:37] Speaker 01: And commercially available devices are in evidence. [00:09:40] Speaker 01: And so the board thought that Harris maybe got 12-volt power from the FBDIM connector because it thought it was common in FBDIM motherboards to provide that 12-volt power. [00:09:52] Speaker 01: But that's just incorrect. [00:09:53] Speaker 01: You can actually look at the FBDIM standard, which is [00:09:58] Speaker 01: at the appendix. [00:10:03] Speaker 03: So show me what's your best evidence that Harrison's external source is external to the entire system? [00:10:11] Speaker 01: I think the relevant question here is the claim requires getting the power through the edge connector, and so we only need it to be external to the motherboard. [00:10:21] Speaker 03: What's the evidence? [00:10:21] Speaker 01: So I think the evidence is two pieces. [00:10:24] Speaker 01: One, if you look at paragraphs two and three, the only place where Harris talks about the source of voltage is [00:10:33] Speaker 01: system board and main board voltage sources in paragraph two, and then in paragraph three, contrast that with the invention's external power source. [00:10:42] Speaker 01: And so external, the work that the word external is doing is to contrast it with the system board and main board voltage sources. [00:10:50] Speaker 01: And there's no dispute, there's no argument from the other side that the edge connector can deliver power from something other than the system board or main board voltage source. [00:11:00] Speaker 04: Is there anything in Harris that restricts the source of that supply to something other than the whole system? [00:11:08] Speaker 04: I think what Harris would restrict- No, just answer my question. [00:11:15] Speaker 01: Harris, the word external, so anything that comes within the meaning of the word external is external to the module, not necessarily external to the overall system. [00:11:29] Speaker 01: I think that doesn't make sense because [00:11:31] Speaker 01: In Harris, any power source would be external to the module. [00:11:36] Speaker 01: And it wouldn't really make sense for Harris to identify something as an external voltage source when the motherboard voltage source is also external to the module. [00:11:47] Speaker 01: So if it's comparing the system board or main board voltage sources in paragraph two to the external voltage source, they're both external to the module. [00:11:56] Speaker 01: So that can't be the reason that Harris uses those two different terms. [00:12:00] Speaker 04: You may think it doesn't make any sense, and maybe you're right, but I don't see anything that restricts it. [00:12:09] Speaker 01: I agree that other than the word external, Harris doesn't say that the voltage source must be something else other than using the word external, and also figure 1A. [00:12:20] Speaker 03: Well, it doesn't use the word local. [00:12:22] Speaker 01: Say again? [00:12:23] Speaker 03: It doesn't use the word local. [00:12:26] Speaker 01: I think, so Harris [00:12:28] Speaker 01: If you look at paragraphs two and three, it's using the word external in-contra distinction to system board and main board voltage sources. [00:12:35] Speaker 01: It doesn't ever talk about a local voltage source. [00:12:38] Speaker 01: Anywhere that Harris talks about local voltages, it uses the term local voltage level. [00:12:44] Speaker 01: And so anywhere that Harris is talking about sources is system board sources versus the external source. [00:12:54] Speaker 01: I just want to close the loop on this 12 volt. [00:12:59] Speaker 01: You can potentially read the board is saying that there's 12 volts going to Harris's FB DIMM. [00:13:05] Speaker 01: As I said, that's just based on everybody, all of the experts agree. [00:13:10] Speaker 01: Our expert at 9518 says, quote, a conventional system board would not supply 12 volts to the FB DIMM. [00:13:18] Speaker 01: And Samsung's expert said the same thing in Appendix 9286. [00:13:21] Speaker 01: And I think a key point here is Samsung doesn't defend that board's error at all. [00:13:26] Speaker 01: If you look at page 35 of Samsung's [00:13:28] Speaker 01: brief, Samson quotes the board's opinion that says. [00:13:32] Speaker 03: You're into your rebuttal time. [00:13:34] Speaker 01: Oh, OK. [00:13:34] Speaker 01: I will reserve my time. [00:13:35] Speaker 03: Thank you. [00:13:36] Speaker 03: OK. [00:13:37] Speaker 03: We'll restore you back to your four minutes. [00:13:53] Speaker 03: Mr. Williams? [00:13:57] Speaker 00: Yes, Your Honor. [00:13:58] Speaker 00: The problem in this case is that the whole theory of the appeal is just based on an attorney disagreeing with factual findings that the board made from the evidence record. [00:14:11] Speaker 00: It's important to also note that the board in analyzing [00:14:16] Speaker 00: all of ground one expressly found that it was relying on Dr. Wolf's testimony. [00:14:21] Speaker 00: That was our expert, obviously, below, finding that it supported our interpretation of Harris. [00:14:26] Speaker 00: But the board made its own factual findings about what the Harris disclosures mean. [00:14:29] Speaker 00: And they expressly reject the interpretation that you're hearing from my friend on the opposite side here today. [00:14:36] Speaker 00: Turning, for instance, to page 47 of the appendix, [00:14:50] Speaker 00: This is in the final written decision. [00:14:57] Speaker 00: Here, the board looks at figure three from Harris. [00:15:00] Speaker 00: This is what Harris actually shows. [00:15:03] Speaker 00: The annotation that was provided by Petitioner there is just the red boxes to show the edge connectors that are in Harris. [00:15:10] Speaker 00: And the board looks at that figure and says, from this figure above, Petitioner shows [00:15:16] Speaker 00: that Harris's memory modules, 3061 to 306M, are connected to the memory controller only through the edge connections boxed in red, meaning that the power must come from those edge connections. [00:15:29] Speaker 00: So the board looks at the figure, says, this is what Petitioner argues, and we agree. [00:15:34] Speaker 00: They say, Petitioner's expert, this is going down a few lines towards the end of that section, Petitioner's expert Dr. Wolf explained that it was common for the host [00:15:42] Speaker 00: to supply power through edge connectors alongside memory controller signals. [00:15:47] Speaker 00: So very clearly, the board looks at Harris and it says, nope, I see the power coming in through these edge connections. [00:15:54] Speaker 00: Now what Harris does is instead of taking four different types of power from the motherboard, it only takes one. [00:15:59] Speaker 00: So Harris is saying, OK, instead of having these four different voltage levels that you need, just give me one voltage level into the memory module. [00:16:07] Speaker 00: I will convert it to the particular voltages that I need for the devices that are actually on the memory module. [00:16:12] Speaker 00: easily to extend, you can then just replace the memory modules anytime you have a new version of memory and just use the same power from the motherboard without having to make changes to the motherboard. [00:16:21] Speaker 00: That's all Harris does. [00:16:22] Speaker 00: The board understood that perfectly well and reached the conclusion that that's all that was necessary to teach the claimed embodiments. [00:16:29] Speaker 00: Also turning then to paragraph page 49 of the final written decision, I think this is the exact same section that my friend was referring the court to, [00:16:43] Speaker 00: You see there, they make that same interpretation of what Harris's teachings are. [00:16:50] Speaker 00: So this is the paragraph that begins considering the foregoing. [00:16:53] Speaker 00: And if you skip down three or four lines, you'll see there that they talk about Harris's teachings. [00:16:59] Speaker 00: Harris's teaching. [00:17:00] Speaker 00: of replacing power supply interface pins with as few as six positive 12 volt pins means that those six pins take the place of the 72 pins in the interface, the interface there being obviously the edge connector interface, implying [00:17:15] Speaker 00: The power still comes from the interface with the host system. [00:17:19] Speaker 00: So the board is just clearly making a factual finding about how a person of ordinary skill in the art would interpret the disclosure in the prior art. [00:17:25] Speaker 00: That is its job as the fact-finder. [00:17:28] Speaker 00: There was substantial evidence to support that interpretation, not only from the express disclosure of Harris itself, but Dr. Wolf, our expert, who the board expressly credited. [00:17:39] Speaker 00: And based on that finding, there's clearly substantial evidence to support the board's conclusion that edge connectors supply the power connection as required. [00:17:46] Speaker 02: What does the board say about motivation to combine, I guess, Harris with an FBD? [00:17:50] Speaker 00: Yeah. [00:17:51] Speaker 00: Yeah. [00:17:51] Speaker 00: Let me address that. [00:17:52] Speaker 00: Thank you, Your Honor. [00:17:54] Speaker 00: So the motivation to combine that was provided in the petition. [00:17:58] Speaker 00: had to do with the fact that Harris talks about FB DIMM. [00:18:01] Speaker 00: It says specifically that the DIMMs in his modules can be FB DIMMs. [00:18:04] Speaker 00: He doesn't tell you exactly which voltages that you would need to generate. [00:18:08] Speaker 00: It was for that reason that the petition turned to the FB DIMM standards itself, which give you the precise voltages that are necessary. [00:18:14] Speaker 00: It shows you that there are at least four of them that you would need to generate. [00:18:16] Speaker 00: which is what provides the motivation for having four buck converters on the module. [00:18:21] Speaker 00: But as to this issue, as to using the edge connectors, the petition expressly relied on both Harris and FBDIM because they both teach the same thing. [00:18:28] Speaker 00: They both teach this edge connector interface, and that's exactly what the board found. [00:18:32] Speaker 00: The board found that both Harris and FBDIM teach an edge connector interface to receive power. [00:18:37] Speaker 00: So there was no modification of Harris that was necessary in order to get to this element. [00:18:42] Speaker 02: Even if there's no need to modify, don't we need a motivation? [00:18:47] Speaker 00: Oh, yeah, sorry. [00:18:47] Speaker 00: Yes. [00:18:48] Speaker 00: So the motivation is just that Harris itself tells you that my technique can be used with FBDEMs. [00:18:53] Speaker 00: So that's the motivation he needs. [00:18:54] Speaker 00: Well, let me look to see what FBDEMs are. [00:18:55] Speaker 02: Can you show me where the board makes that finding? [00:18:57] Speaker 00: Oh, sure. [00:18:57] Speaker 00: Yeah, absolutely. [00:18:58] Speaker 00: Although, honestly, I don't even think that one is challenged here, because it is just so clear. [00:19:08] Speaker 00: in Harris itself. [00:19:12] Speaker 00: Okay, so it starts at page, I'm sorry, I'm looking actually at the 054 final run decision. [00:19:32] Speaker 00: Let me just use the 918 instead. [00:19:40] Speaker 00: OK, so this begins at page 22. [00:19:41] Speaker 00: The board starts its analysis. [00:19:46] Speaker 00: What page? [00:19:47] Speaker 00: 22, appendix page 22. [00:19:57] Speaker 00: So the very first sentence, the board articulates what we said in the petition. [00:20:00] Speaker 00: Petitioner contends that a person of ordinary skill in the art would have been motivated to combine Harris with the FDIM standards with a reasonable expectation of success because Harris states that its figure 1A [00:20:09] Speaker 00: maybe a fully buffered DIMM, which is FB DIMM. [00:20:13] Speaker 00: And then we go on to talk about how a person of skill and the art would have understood this because they would have been aware of the JDAX standards. [00:20:20] Speaker 00: And then it gets into the, as I mentioned, there's various different voltage levels that you would need to generate. [00:20:26] Speaker 02: And how about on the point of whether the source of the voltage is external and what it's external to, where does the board make a finding in the context of motivation to combine on that point? [00:20:40] Speaker 00: Yeah, okay, so that would be starting around that same section that was out earlier, starting around page 47, where the board... I mean, that whole section, I should say Judge Stark starts at page 843. [00:20:56] Speaker 00: It's like five pages of analysis here on this in question. [00:21:00] Speaker 00: My short answer is start at page 43 and reach page 50, and it's in there. [00:21:05] Speaker 00: But I guess to get to your specific question, where does it say that it's external to the module? [00:21:12] Speaker 00: I'm not sure if they ever articulate it in quite [00:21:15] Speaker 00: that language, but it is very clear that they reject all of Petitioner's, sorry, Patner's arguments. [00:21:21] Speaker 02: How about at the very end, the last paragraph on 50? [00:21:24] Speaker 02: Petitioner indicates FDIM standards show the buffer AMB may be connected to a host, suggesting that FDIM derives its power from the host. [00:21:34] Speaker 02: Is that helpful? [00:21:35] Speaker 00: Absolutely. [00:21:35] Speaker 00: I mean, yeah, that's one, that's one section. [00:21:37] Speaker 00: I would point you, I mean, I would start actually on page 47 that I read to you before where, where the board looked at Paris and said, [00:21:43] Speaker 00: Look, I look at figure three, there's only one place the power could be coming from. [00:21:46] Speaker 00: It's the edge connector, right? [00:21:47] Speaker 00: And the edge connector is connected to only one thing. [00:21:49] Speaker 00: It's motherboard. [00:21:51] Speaker 03: Look at the first paragraph on that page on 50. [00:21:54] Speaker 00: Yeah, Harris further teaches at the external, that one? [00:21:59] Speaker 00: Yes. [00:21:59] Speaker 00: That paragraph? [00:22:00] Speaker 00: Yeah. [00:22:01] Speaker 00: They do have an interpretation there. [00:22:02] Speaker 00: Yeah, this means there may be more than one volt supply as petitioner contends, which may be the host and a [00:22:07] Speaker 00: host system and a backup source, for example. [00:22:10] Speaker 00: And then again, they refer to Dr. Wolf testimony expressively reciting what he said, which is when, you know, he's here interpreting what Harris's statement is, right? [00:22:19] Speaker 00: He's saying Harris's statement that system board power supply and associated voltage planes are eliminated means that supplies such as the memory and the VDD and the memory BCC that are specific to particular generations of memory chips can be supplied on the DIMM, you know, that's the module itself, rather than supplied from the motherboard. [00:22:38] Speaker 00: This doesn't say, I mean, at no point does the board say, you know, there's an external source outside the motherboard at all, right? [00:22:44] Speaker 00: It makes very specific findings. [00:22:45] Speaker 00: No, the source, the voltage source coming into these DIMMs in Harris is coming from the motherboard. [00:22:50] Speaker 00: Via that edge connection, there is no other teaching. [00:22:54] Speaker 02: We heard about multiple levels of conversion that would be necessary. [00:22:59] Speaker 02: What do you say to that? [00:23:01] Speaker 00: Yeah, well, first of all, that argument is, I don't even think in the briefs, but even if that were true, it wouldn't [00:23:06] Speaker 00: wouldn't make the system not work. [00:23:08] Speaker 02: I mean, obviously Harris was well aware of the energy... It might essentially teach away from this combination, would it not? [00:23:15] Speaker 00: Again, Harris doesn't... Well, it depends on what combination you're referring to. [00:23:19] Speaker 00: Harris is aware of the energy conversion requirements when changing voltages. [00:23:24] Speaker 00: He builds that into his system. [00:23:25] Speaker 00: That's why he has multiple voltage converters on the memory module itself to take the voltage from the rails coming over that motherboard rail and convert it to the voltages he needs. [00:23:35] Speaker 00: But I don't think Harris even ever talks about making a voltage conversion on the motherboard. [00:23:38] Speaker 00: In fact, if you looked at Harris Paragraph 20, it's on page 4676 in Volume 1. [00:24:02] Speaker 00: 21 paragraphs 20 20 20 on 46 76 this is because voltage independent embodiments Disclosed herein can provide upgradability and extensibility without changing system board power distribution Transitioning to newer DRAM technologies eg at a lower operating voltage is more cost-effective as well as simpler to implement further the embodiments are amenable to dual positive 12 volt power supply rail Implantation so that industry standard form factors can be advantageously accommodated [00:24:32] Speaker 00: Here, he's expressly telling you, yeah, just give me the 12-volt power supply. [00:24:36] Speaker 00: Give me the 12 volts. [00:24:37] Speaker 00: It's coming from a power supply, going through the motherboard, into the device. [00:24:40] Speaker 00: That's all Harris needs to work. [00:24:42] Speaker 00: So there's no modification necessary. [00:24:45] Speaker 00: Unless there were any other issues in the briefing that the court wanted me to address, I'm happy to just get back to you. [00:24:50] Speaker 03: Thank you. [00:24:58] Speaker 03: I'm restoring you to four minutes. [00:25:01] Speaker 01: Thank you. [00:25:02] Speaker 01: I want to start by addressing my colleague's point that the board found that there was no modification to Harris that's necessary. [00:25:11] Speaker 01: I think that's inconsistent with how they briefed the issue. [00:25:15] Speaker 01: If you look at page three of the red brief, it says that the board combined Judge Stark, as you observed, the FBDEM standard with Harris. [00:25:23] Speaker 01: The argument that Harris itself teaches getting power from the mother board standing alone is not [00:25:30] Speaker 01: How the board phrased it, but I'd like to just turn to the board's decision Appendix 49 and we can just kind of walk through it the second paragraph where it says Considering the foregoing where it starts that first sentence is [00:25:48] Speaker 01: The second sentence there of the third line says Harris states that DRAM devices may be powered from system board or main board voltage sources, right? [00:25:57] Speaker 01: So that's talking not about Harris's invention, that's talking about the prior art. [00:26:02] Speaker 01: And then it acknowledges that our argument is that Harris teaches away from doing them. [00:26:07] Speaker 01: And it says, although this is presented in the background of Harris, [00:26:10] Speaker 01: And patent owner argues that this is the technology over which Harris seeks to improve. [00:26:15] Speaker 01: It is nonetheless information that a person of ordinary skill in the art would have known. [00:26:20] Speaker 01: And so here, the board seems to imply not that Harris itself necessarily teaches getting power from the motherboard, but regardless of what Harris teaches, skilled artisans would know that you could get power from the motherboard. [00:26:34] Speaker 01: But there's actually [00:26:36] Speaker 01: Insofar as Samsung now says that you can just get it from the board's findings, there's two really major problems with those findings. [00:26:44] Speaker 01: The very next sentence where it says, Harris's teaching of replacing power supply interface pins with as few as six 12-volt pins means that those six pins take the place of the 72 pins on the interface. [00:26:56] Speaker 01: implying that power still comes from the interface with the host system. [00:27:00] Speaker 01: So there, the board omits what Harris actually says in that paragraph 12 that's being quoted. [00:27:06] Speaker 01: There is a parenthetical right after the word pins that says, from an external source. [00:27:10] Speaker 01: So the board's finding here is omitting the key language in paragraph 12. [00:27:16] Speaker 01: And my colleague over here just said- And this is a factual finding on the board, right? [00:27:20] Speaker 03: This is a factual finding, but I think- So this is subject to substantial evidence. [00:27:24] Speaker 01: I think it's not substantial evidence where the board makes a finding that omits a key portion of what the reference says. [00:27:32] Speaker 02: Why wouldn't we assume instead that the board saw the parenthetical and didn't understand external to mean what you insisted mean? [00:27:38] Speaker 01: I think there's a good reason for that. [00:27:40] Speaker 01: And my colleague kind of alluded to it at the end of his argument, is that the board, and if you look at appendix 50, right at the second sentence in the second paragraph on appendix 50, [00:27:54] Speaker 01: The board says the experts agree that it was common at the time for the host system to provide the regulated 12 volt power supply to the FB DIMM. [00:28:04] Speaker 01: So it's saying that the power supply, that the FB DIMM is already getting 12 volts from the motherboard. [00:28:12] Speaker 01: And my colleague said that Harris just teaches, get those 12 volts that's already coming into the FB DIMM and then use it to power the power converter. [00:28:19] Speaker 01: The problem is that is a [00:28:22] Speaker 01: It's not only an error, it's an undefended error. [00:28:24] Speaker 01: So the FBDIM spec at appendix 5038 clearly does not show 12 volts. [00:28:31] Speaker 01: Our experts said, quote, a conventional system board would not supply 12 volts to the FBDIM. [00:28:37] Speaker 01: This is appendix 9518. [00:28:40] Speaker 01: And Samsung's experts said the exact same thing at appendix 9286 and 9291. [00:28:46] Speaker 01: And where Samsung addresses this in their brief at appendix, sorry, [00:28:51] Speaker 01: page 35 of the red brief. [00:28:54] Speaker 01: Samsung quotes the board's statement that says, it was common at the time for the host system to provide the regulated 12-volt power supply to the FB DIMM. [00:29:03] Speaker 01: But on page 35 of their red brief, they omit the words to the FB DIMM and then cite a bunch of irrelevant testimony and evidence about providing 12-volt power to graphics cards and other things like that. [00:29:18] Speaker 01: This is a factual finding by the board that Samsung itself doesn't defend. [00:29:24] Speaker 01: It has to kind of rewrite the finding to mean something else. [00:29:27] Speaker 01: The conventional FB DIM did not supply 12 volt power. [00:29:31] Speaker 01: Thank you. [00:29:32] Speaker 01: All right. [00:29:33] Speaker 03: Thank you very much. [00:29:34] Speaker 03: We thank the party for the argument.